Challenge Wings - Legality Const & Use regs...MOT etc etc

[reads90]

But if like most, you did the tray back thing and trailered your truck to events, where are you breaking the law. Pass MOT, Ins just specify mods then tax. Your truck wouldn't ever go on the road so therefore C&U regs wouldn't apply. But you would have the relevant paperwork to satisfy event criteria. But if it's an everyday truck that you also use for events then that's a whole new ballgame as above.

No excuse for running around in an illegal truck, and as Tony said a lot of these events has road sections from one site to another . And the whole ideal of the car having to be road taxed to do an event is to make sure the car has a certain standard of road worthiness and is legal for the road .

If you truck is illegal it does not matter if you use it for events or everyday. Even on events you will at some point drive it on the road and your a liar if you say you have not , after all half way though an event you may need to go to another site or fill the truck up with fuel

[honitonhobbit]

Allowing for the fact that the insurance is no longer valid if the vehicle is not legal and neither is the MOT so what you have is a taxed, un MOT'd and uninsured vehicle.

As to the law around Wellington/Bamton etc all your VOSA man has to do is read this forum or check out the internet

I can just see the happy smiling faces and here the chuckles of joy

[Guest WALFY]

No excuse for running around in an illegal truck, and as Tony said alot of these events has raod sections from one site to another . And the whole ideal of the car having to be road taxed to do an event is to make sure the car has a certain standard of raodworthness and is legal for the road .

See your point but if you really looked at most cars on the road today I'd say the majority would fail either MOT/C&U/SVA regs or test. It's a fact of life, if you look hard enough you will find something

[Steve 90]

The trouble with a lot of the trucks around the rate of change and regularity of modifications will mean that they need an SVA every month or two! Think with all this being stirred up time and time again its going to cause people problems.My trucks trailered everywhere but I know that if I need to get an SVA every time I do something to my truck just to cross the road once or twice a year on one of JST's event I'll call it a day and I'll find something else to do with my Sundays.

[Steve 90]

As to the law around Wellington/Bamton etc all your VOSA man has to do is read this forum or check out the internet

Exactly and all the recent talk and attention being drawn to the subject is going to make it more likely.

[reads90]

See your point but if you really looked at most cars on the road today I'd say the majority would fail either MOT/C&U/SVA regs or test. It's a fact of life, if you look hard enough you will find something

Well this is the point i am making . If you have an accident and the police find you truck ilegal or a mod has caused the accident. And as i have said before i had a police inspector tell me thay can find a problem on a week old car , and belive me they really go into detail on cars and find out what caused the problem. I was not at the inquest about my dad (as i am in Aus) but Jules was and said the detail on both vechile was amaxing in what they new about service, wear, what tyre pressures were, rust on the car and where, drive rest time . And it is not going to take an expert to suss the problem on some of the landys around . And belive me that is when the insurance company with just walk away and the sh* treally hits the fan. And if you kill somone then you will be lucky not to be in a cell . and as we head close to the yank mentality then you will be sued for everything you have

[honitonhobbit]

Mayhap it's time to look at the whole non road legal class and approach Alexander Price Ltd (or similar) for a blanket quotation on TPL

This is your big conundrum with non MSA involvement - get the MSA involved and eventually kill the sport because of the scrutineeering requirement but get event TPL

[sheeppimp]

Mayhap it's time to look at the whole non road legal class and approach Alexander Price Ltd (or similar) for a blanket quotation on TPL

This is your big conundrum with non MSA involvement - get the MSA involved and eventually kill the sport because of the scrutineeering requirement but get event TPL

i know it's been done before and I know nowt about it but got to ask whether it would kill off challenges as a sport - my local club are MSA affiliated? (is that the right term?) and run the trials under their umbrella. It seems to work for them and trialing and I cant see (as an interested outsider) why it shouldn't work for challenges too

The other disciplines the AWDC run trials/safaris don't need to be road legal from what I recall so it can work there.

Maybe it's a logical progression as things evolve?

[steve_d]

A quick look at the latest proposed IVA manual for 'Wheel Guards' says.

It must cover the width of the tyre starting at 30 degrees forward of wheel centre to 50 degrees rearward.

After the 50 degrees it no longer has to cover the whole breadth of the tyre.

The guard must extend rearward down to a point not less than 150mm above the wheel centre.

For the last part I'm assuming this can be a mudflap.

Steve

[Turbocharger]

It's getting OT but, what qualifies a design of part to be fitted to a vehicle? The Germans have to have every part TUV approved, and I appreciate there's a world of difference between (in ascending order):

• Farmer Giles underslinging his leaf-sprung axles and using some bent-over threaded bar to secure them
  
• Unnamed companies offering spaceframe back ends welded (badly) to chassis front ends
  
• My new turbo conversion, which isn't type approved by anyone
  
• SimonR's X-arms with their balljoints which he's done some computer analysis on
  

Si didn't HAVE to do the analysis (apart from winning ongoing business). There's only the fear of consequences if these bits do go wrong one day - and the response to that threat depends on the individual.

[reads90]

Si didn't HAVE to do the analysis (apart from winning ongoing business). There's only the fear of consequences if these bits do go wrong one day - and the response to that threat depends on the individual.

Well we now live in the world of litigation (or how ever you spell it ) and everyone sueing everyone else. I work in the flooring industry and litigation and being sued because of a product causing an injury (even years and years down the line) is a major consern. So if i was colin at Scrap iron i would very worried of what might come my way in the furture . I have seen some of there stuff break with some relative ease.

[will_warne]

As some have said - the majority of vehicles on here (in fact everywhere on the road) would fail an SVA / C&U at some point (be it mud flaps, broken lights minor chassis work (eg trimming the dumb irons to fit a D44 bumper), illegal exhausts, tyres with incorrect ratings etc etc etc). However, this is the same for pretty much everyone and there is a big gulf between a minor infringement and a MAJOR AND DOWNRIGHT BLATANT breach (as a lot of vehicles are).

A couple of points have also been raised about requirements for road legality for events. IMHO this is an essential part of the sport and should stay - we do not drive round and round in circles and, unfortunately, we haven't got the huge tracts of land in this country which would allow us to avoid all road sections. I also believe it is one of the things that will control the sport and keep it accessible. For those 2 reasons I think it should stay. Look at rally cars - they have many of the same problems as we do and this is something that is never mentioned. Transit sections are part of the sport! On a personal note I want a road legal vehicle - I won't drive to big events for the damage issue but I will drive the truck if I marshal.

Regarding repeated SVAs - I simply don't buy that. First off, once you have you're vehicle SVAed the first time you're already looking at something highly modified / custom built. This should have enough development in it to ensure the car stays legal. For example - change the axles = no big deal as long as C& U are satisfied as you still retain most of the vehicle's points. The same goes for suspension mods. Same for engine mods. There is also the very significant point that who takes down all the EXACT details of the vehicle when an SVA is done????? After you have the SVA you will probably have a Q plate (although you may not depending on how you build the vehicle). If you do get this Q plate or the vehicle is a non Q amateur built vehicle how will an inspector know if major, additional modifications have been made???? They won't! Also, you won't get pulled for a random check with a Q plate as its an unknown quantity for an inspector - they simply won't know where to start!!! Fair enough those who have trailer queens that literally never go on the road and only tax/insure/MOT to enter events. However, I still believe they should comply with C&U.

In short - if you come to make major mods you should look to build a 'new' vehicle by jumping through the hoops and allowing you to get a commercial SVA (or the new equivalent that is due to come in). It is not that hard, it is not that expensive and it will make you legal and give you more flexibility regarding later mods. If you don't want to go down this route the limit of what you can do without serious risk is realistically to create the sort of vehicles like Hybrid from Hell, White 90 or JST.

[FridgeFreezer]

Exactly and all the recent talk and attention being drawn to the subject is going to make it more likely.

IMHO better to talk about it and be prepared than pretend it doesn't exist and watch someone on the scene be the crash test dummy when something goes wrong.

The kit-car community bought the SVA about due to the dodgy deathtraps being put on the road under their original registration - Seven-style things held together with string and still registered as a Sierra, for the want of a few extra quid and a bit of paper from the DVLA. The 4x4 scene are in danger of bringing similar pain on themselves with hacked about challenge trucks and some of the stuff that goes on without any notification.

The funny thing is most of the scratch-built stuff I've seen is less likely to fall foul of the law than the average challenge truck whose owner assumes that because it still looks like a 90 he's in the clear.

[will_warne]

IMHO better to talk about it and be prepared than pretend it doesn't exist and watch someone on the scene be the crash test dummy when something goes wrong.

The kit-car community bought the SVA about due to the dodgy deathtraps being put on the road under their original registration - Seven-style things held together with string and still registered as a Sierra, for the want of a few extra quid and a bit of paper from the DVLA. The 4x4 scene are in danger of bringing similar pain on themselves with hacked about challenge trucks and some of the stuff that goes on without any notification.

The funny thing is most of the scratch-built stuff I've seen is less likely to fall foul of the law than the average challenge truck whose owner assumes that because it still looks like a 90 he's in the clear.

Bingo! Most people who scratch build will tend to have a more holistic approach with more time going into the build - this means details are less likely to be overlooked and there is often the presence of a Q plate. I honestly don't think the real problem comes from the Challenge scene as the cars are well made (generally), aren't really used on road and there aren't many of them anyway. However, the people who think they can copy (badly) something they've seen in a magazine which falls under the SVA umbrella and then drive to a play day is what will cause the problem.

The kit car scene is a good one to look at - I've got several friends who own them and it shows how the SVA system works several years down the line particularly regarding modifications. IMHO take the hassle of an amateur build now as it will save you a load of grief in the long term!

[FridgeFreezer]

I honestly don't think the real problem comes from the Challenge scene as the cars are well made (generally)

Really?

Let's not confuse material thickness with quality here, there are some right shaky vehicles in the challenge scene. Sure they may have heavily uprated axle internals and million dollar winches, but the standard of the rest of the vehicle often leaves a lot to be desired. If VOSA set up an inspection point at the gate of an average challenge event and pulled everyone who drove out, what sort of % do you think would be allowed to continue on their way?

There's also the question of just how legal many of these trucks are - take an old 90, swap the engine for a 200TDi, swap the gearbox, swap the transfer box, swap at least the back axle to gain discs, replace the suspension with some fandangled extreme setup... you're rapidly losing points here. It's the same with tax-exempt coiler hybrids, which are mostly a VIN plate with a chopped up RR rivetted on.

[reads90]

. I honestly don't think the real problem comes from the Challenge scene as the cars are well made (generally), aren't really used on road and there aren't many of them anyway. .

Really Will , what challenge scene are you looking at , not the same as me

[reads90]

Ok what happen to the engineers report that you used to have to get for the insurance company .

In 92 i put 200 TDi engine and gearbox in a RRC and i had to have an engineers report before the insurance company would insure you. This seems to no longer be a thing. Is this because it makes a get out clause for the insurance company.

After all John

Did you have to / or have you got an engineers report the V8 engine in your 109. And do you have one for the portals under your truck,. And do the insurance company really know what portals are. After all most insurance companies i know would not know what they were even if you hit them round the back of the head with them .

Not picking on your john just know your truck and what you have done and you are on here posting on this topic

[dollythelw]

laughably an engineers report for insurance purposes can be little more than short spiel from a garage, Im not sure exactly when changing an alternator became a profession but it seems to be now If getting Burt from the garage to sign his name on a bit of paper makes everyone feel better then so be it.

[Steve 90]

This all started out as a thread about the legality of challenge wings and has turned into yet another "throw all the challenge trucks off the road. I admit that there are a lot of trucks on the road that are not safe but a large majority of the more heavily modified ones are in a good state of repair. Its the less modified ones that someone's been round with a hobby welder and a halfords spanner set that we need to worry about and these are probably the ones that are less likely to need an SVA.

My truck is 100% mechanically and structualy A1. It only does about 1/2 mile at 25-30mph on a small back road a couple of times each year but I do regularly make major alterations to it. If I need to SVA it every time (And Im sorry Will, Saying you need to SVA it but once you have done it you'll be ok for further mods make a nonsense of the whole thing) for just that tiny use then I'll give up.

Where do we stop with this. C&U says tyres must have a speed rating in excess of the max rated speed of the vehicle they are fitted too. Does a simex speed rating exceed that of a V8 landrover??? I don't know but it might be worth looking at.

Talking about speed, what about an engineers report for a seriously moded V8? (as I thing Honiton Hobit mentioned earlier)

What's the effect of 35 inch tyres on the braking system? Surely that should have an engineers report before being used on the road?

Suspension lifts alter the CofG and the steering geometry of a vehicle, Surely that's quite fundamental to the safety of a vehicle and should require a engineers report?

I do think that there are many many trucks that are not safe to be on the road but SVAing all the tray backs isn't going to even get close to sorting it out as the worst ones are the ones that are just being messed with in a shed by people who don't have a clue and wont be picked up by it. As far as I can see this is just stirring up trouble and bringing something to public attention which is not really the problem we should be looking at.

In contrast I see cars and trucks through our garage everyday with wire hanging out of tyres, Steering components in a poor state, Brakes below standard which drive on main roads at high speed and the customer refuses to do anything about it because they "Don't want to spend any money on it" Think I know which would worry me the most.

[reads90]

laughably an engineers report for insurance purposes can be little more than short spiel from a garage, Im not sure exactly when changing an alternator became a profession but it seems to be now If getting Burt from the garage to sign his name on a bit of paper makes everyone feel better then so be it.

Does not also mean that someone who owns a welder can weld two bits together which will hold together

When i did it it was spefic gargaes and not just any idiot with a spanner in his hand. Although something is better than a tw*t with a beer in one hand and a welder in the other, building some gods what thing in the back of his garage

[Steve 90]

laughably an engineers report for insurance purposes can be little more than short spiel from a garage, Im not sure exactly when changing an alternator became a profession but it seems to be now If getting Burt from the garage to sign his name on a bit of paper makes everyone feel better then so be it.

Exactly, I can do and have done engineers reports in the past, but now im not allowed to alter my truck???????

[najw]

Mayhap it's time to look at the whole non road legal class and approach Alexander Price Ltd (or similar) for a blanket quotation on TPL

This is your big conundrum with non MSA involvement - get the MSA involved and eventually kill the sport because of the scrutineeering requirement but get event TPL

How exactly is MSA involvement going to kill the sport?

The AWDC's Howlin' Wolf series is MSA permitted and insured and isn't exactly on a life support machine

[nicks90]

laughably an engineers report for insurance purposes can be little more than short spiel from a garage, Im not sure exactly when changing an alternator became a profession but it seems to be now If getting Burt from the garage to sign his name on a bit of paper makes everyone feel better then so be it.

thats why most garages refuse to do engineers reports!

they are scared half to death that they sign off a piece of paper for the insurance company saying the Dana 60 axles and massive 7 million BHP engine is fitted properly.

6 months down the line an axle / suspension part gets ripped off and someone dies. Insurance company pay out on the insurance and the vehicle gets inspected by some clever people. They identify that the A frame/rear arms/chassis mounts on a landy cant handle 7 million BHP. Insurance company then waves that bit of paper at the garage and sues them for producing an inaccurate engineers report.

So instead the insurance companies dont ask for any reports nd just refuse to pay out in the event of a crash due to poor workmanship or ill thought out mods. Owner of the vehicle is then liable and ends up in jail and bankrupt.

I am really not sure why most people arent willing to do the SVA,

Looking at the majority of challenge motors - they do tend to have a simillar theme. Take a standard landy and tray back the rear, add a cage, add lockers, add winches.

Why WOULDNT it pass an sva? the major things like lights position at the front, braking systems, steering, major suspension components and mounting points are all pretty much unchanged from factory original. Or if they are, its generally uprated stuff but still in the same positions/purpose and would happily pass sva scrutiny.

that just leaves the chassis mods and cage and welding to inspect. If you are confident in your welding abilities - then why would you worry?

And as has already been said - once you have an sva and a Q plate - you can carry on modding, as they dont routinely make a note of every mod when they do the sva........

[Guest diesel_jim]

I suppose there's an answer to all this....

have these challenge events on one site, or trailer the trucks between sites. no use on public roads so no problem.

have a scrutineer at the start, like the AWDC do on safari's to make sure they're remotely safe.

that way the regs won't come into it, but if you want to use a legal road vehicle, so be it, or just have a class for "slightly bigger tyred truck cabbed 90's with the side sills removed"

or am i talking rubbish? probably!

[reads90]

thats why most garages refuse to do engineers reports!

they are scared half to death that they sign off a piece of paper for the insurance company saying the Dana 60 axles and massive 7 million BHP engine is fitted properly.

6 months down the line an axle / suspension part gets ripped off and someone dies. Insurance company pay out on the insurance and the vehicle gets inspected by some clever people. They identify that the A frame/rear arms/chassis mounts on a landy cant handle 7 million BHP. Insurance company then waves that bit of paper at the garage and sues them for producing an inaccurate engineers report.

So instead the insurance companies dont ask for any reports nd just refuse to pay out in the event of a crash due to poor workmanship or ill thought out mods. Owner of the vehicle is then liable and ends up in jail and bankrupt.

Oh cause that explains it