LS1 into Range Rover P38

[zim]

Evening,

i think my 4.6 is a bit buggered, due to the fact it's been using water for a little while.

So, me listening to the little voices in my head have been thinking about an ls1.

I've spent a while on google, and can't find all that much information.

So what's involved ???

Buy an LS1 from the states (where the $ is now stronger !!!)

then ?

- 4L80E ?

- What transfer box ? and how do i fit it to the gearbox ?

- ECU ? Can i get it to work with my current P38 ecu ? or will i need a MS ???

I'm assuming that they phyically aren't too difficult to fit in, it's just a matter of cutting off old mounts and installing new ones.

I know people have them in 90's, but i've not seen too much about them in p38's.

Cheers

Gord

[Guest noggy]

You will need to run MS with it, your P38 ECU wont work properly. different voltages on injectors and other such things is the reason.

Engine mounts will need to be changed but thats fairly simple to do.

depending on where the engine will fit, will determine where you CAN fit your gearbox and transfer, so prop shaft lengths may have to be altered.

whats drive train you will need i am not sure on.

[zim]

You will need to run MS with it, your P38 ECU wont work properly. different voltages on injectors and other such things is the reason.

Engine mounts will need to be changed but thats fairly simple to do.

depending on where the engine will fit, will determine where you CAN fit your gearbox and transfer, so prop shaft lengths may have to be altered.

whats drive train you will need i am not sure on.

cheers

from reading, the standard gearbox won't be good enough for the LS1 so it's advised to upgrade. The 'problem' with the p38 is the diff is on the other side compared to a normal defender etc. Meaning i can't use a 4L80E with LT230.

G

[pugwash]

there are some chappies that produce a kit to mate an LS1 to an HP24e box but i coudlnt' recommend it- and LS1 will easily kick out over 350lb/ft of torque- some 15% more than designed for the box (which isn't known to be the strongest)

Marks4wd will do a kit to mate a 4L80e to an Lt230 although you have to move the gearbox mounts back about 2"

Don't use MS as you have a to redrill the crank nose to take a trigger wheel which is both inelegant and messy- also there aren't many people using the MS I/O board to control a 4L80e yet (well not that i could find)

Better off using LSedit or similar to setup the stock ECU (which is waterproof and has lots of fune features as standard) to control both the engine and box.

Can usually pick up an LS1 for £1500 in the US and 4L80e (get a post 98 auto box- they are easier to work with) can often be picked up for peanuts (make sure you get the TPS, brake sensor, and CATS for the LS1)

no idea what how you would need to talk to the ECU of the P38 to fool it into thinking that the car was running normally- i would guess that the P28 won't work without its own ECU- possibly stuff like suspension, AC and stuff like that wouldn't work, but as i know sweet FA about P28 electrics i'll let someone else comment about this.

[q-rover]

It isn't the metal tht is the problem but the electronics.

How are you going to convince the BECM that the engine and

gearbox are there and running as they should?

[David Sparkes]

I think I've seen some mention of this in the 38A forum on www.rangerovers.net.

It might be worth while looking, but it may also be a waste of time, I just haven't been paying attention to the topic.

So people may have been asking questions, or commenting on their day dreaming, or there might just be reference to someone who has done it.

Not much help I feel, so couldn't leave it like that:

Try http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic...0&hilit=LS1

And http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic...lit=ls1#p199636

You will see (I only saw) one mention of a successful build, and that is in the UK. Both Gordon Finlay and Mark Adams come with good reputations for the quality of their work, as far as I am concerned.

Good Luck, and I hope your deep pockets are full of money.

Cheers

[Dave W]

Don't use MS as you have a to redrill the crank nose to take a trigger wheel which is both inelegant and messy

You are incorrect...

First, you can't mount a trigger wheel reliably on an LS1 crank pulley simply because the crank pulley on an LS1 isn't keyed (at least on the ones I've worked on) so not only can it rotate over time but it will also be difficulty to get lined up correctly in the first place as there are no timing marks on it for the reasons given above. I suppose it may be possible to key the crank and pulley but there's no point.

Second, MS will run quite happily off the OEM crank and cam sensors so you don't have to add any hardware to the engine. With it's use of 5v logic level outputs on crank and cam sensors, it's use of 5v triggers on the ignition coils and it's use of GM sensors means the LS1 could have been made for MegaSquirt.

Nothing wrong with using the stock ECU or a Delphi or similar but MegaSquirt is a good, cheap alternative. I've been using mine for over a year now on road and in competition and it's not missed a beat. For the 4L80E gearbox I use a Compushift ECU.

On the original question, it's not easy to do the conversion primarily because of the electronics involved in the original, you would probably need to keep the existing engine and possibly gearbox ECU and fool them into thinking they were still doing something useful.

The simplest and cheapest way to do it would be to use the existing gearbox and try to resist the urge to abuse it

[orangemach5]

Cheapish solutions on ebay at the mo, you use the chevy t400 box and mount to lr transfer box http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A:IT&ih=019

[custom-conversions]

Cheapish solutions on ebay at the mo, you use the chevy t400 box and mount to lr transfer box http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A:IT&ih=019

Thats fine if its a Defender, Disco, Range Rover Classic etc. But on a P38 you would have the front prop shaft through the middle of the engine sump as the diffs are offset to the opposit side.

You would need a different adapter to mate up to the Borge Warner P38 transferbox.

[landmannnn]

Cheapish solutions on ebay at the mo, you use the chevy t400 box and mount to lr transfer box http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A:IT&ih=019

Interesting. I wonder how well a manual lr gearbox would cope with an ls engine? I suppose right foot control would help.

[custom-conversions]

Interesting. I wonder how well a manual lr gearbox would cope with an ls engine? I suppose right foot control would help.

I would of thought the auto box from a 4.6 would be stronger & asafer bet. If your a little bit simpatetic with the way you drive it should last reasonably well.

I have a 6.5 GMC v8 Turbo Diesel with a Range Rover Classic ZF 4 speed auto behind it which lasted fine, although you could feel the box slipping if you gave it full throttle from a standing start on tarmac. The 4.6 is a stronger box & I presume the LSx engine won't have much more torque than a big diesel v8.

Would be nice if their was a cheapish solution as it would make the P38 great car.

I'd be tempted to try & bin as much of the Land-Rover Electronics as possible while doing the conversion, they are only going to get even less reliable as they get older.

[DaveSIIA]

Can't comment about the electronic detail of the LS1 into a P38, but my Overfinch 570HSi RRC runs a SBC through a modified ZF 4 speed box.

The SBC (and by association LS1) looks like it was made to go in the engine bay. It's a much neater and more compact looking fit than a 3.9 Rover.

Overfinch claim to have uprated the auto box to match the engine output (422lb-ft @ 3150rpm). They are unlikely to commit to market without having given this some thought. As the 4HP22 shares its case with the 4HP24, it could be worth speaking with a decent auto box specialist (Ashcrofts, etc) to explore the options.

The TH400/4L80E options involve a longer main box and an adapter. What is the P38 like for space to grow the transfer box backwards ~6 inches? The other problem using these transmissions in a RRC is the right hand drop transfer box means the propshaft runs close to the auto box sump. This should be less of a problem with a LH drop on the P38.

On the electronics front, I'd be looking at US based web sites as someone is bound to have swapped out a knackered Rover motor.

BTW: Right foot control can't be relied on to protect the transmission. There's always the urge to let the engine do its stuff

[pugwash]

You are incorrect...

First, you can't mount a trigger wheel reliably on an LS1 crank pulley simply because the crank pulley on an LS1 isn't keyed (at least on the ones I've worked on) so not only can it rotate over time but it will also be difficulty to get lined up correctly in the first place as there are no timing marks on it for the reasons given above.

Indeed that's why i said to DRILL the crank

I suppose it may be possible to key the crank and pulley but there's no point.

Wow now you're getting there- its perfectly possible and done an awful lot in the states- in fact you can get a kit designed specifially for the LSx engines to drill the crank- i have one in the shed at the moment (so you clearly can RELIABLY mount a trigger wheel on an LS1 crank)- Summit Linky

Second, MS will run quite happily off the OEM crank and cam sensors so you don't have to add any hardware to the engine. With it's use of 5v logic level outputs on crank and cam sensors, it's use of 5v triggers on the ignition coils and it's use of GM sensors means the LS1 could have been made for MegaSquirt.

FFS get your facts right- MS does not run happily off the crank sensor- for over 9 years there was no way of translating the rather odd magnetic signal coming off the crank sensor-- perhaps you might like to have a look here MSEFI LS1 query and it would explain a few things for you (to be certain you get this- this was a post I did on MSEFI a couple of years ago). The MSnS_extra029y3 code to run an LS1 off MS has only been around 18 months and can be glitchy, not to mention that if you are using PCB 2.2 you have do some wiring quite frequently. an OEM ECU is plu and play as soon as you remove VATS.

Nothing wrong with using the stock ECU or a Delphi or similar but MegaSquirt is a good, cheap alternative. I've been using mine for over a year now on road and in competition and it's not missed a beat. For the 4L80E gearbox I use a Compushift ECU.

hence why its a dumbass idea to use MS- you end up with 2 ECUs whereas with the original LS1 ECU you can edit to control the box. Duel licences on LSedit is cheaper than compushift by itself- SO if you want the best solution you dont bother using MS and compushift you use the ECU that comes with the engine, and edit to do exactly what you want. The OEM ECU is slightly more tunable than MS with 24x24 maps, and various other interesting features that may or may or not be used. It also allows integrated shifts between the 4L80e and LS1.

On the original question, it's not easy to do the conversion primarily because of the electronics involved in the original, you would probably need to keep the existing engine and possibly gearbox ECU and fool them into thinking they were still doing something useful.

which is the one place the MS would be of benefit as you could probably convince someone to ouput the correct signals to the P38 ECUs

The simplest and cheapest way to do it would be to use the existing gearbox and try to resist the urge to abuse it

Simplest yes, cheapest- unlikely in the medium to long term!

[q-rover]

RR Forum thread

Another longer RR Forum thread

[orangemach5]

Express Gearboxes of Portsmouth will build you any box you want to handle any power you want, (they have built a fair few fuel top fuel g/box's! )

[FridgeFreezer]

Don't use MS as you have a to redrill the crank nose to take a trigger wheel which is both inelegant and messy- also there aren't many people using the MS I/O board to control a 4L80e yet (well not that i could find)

Err, why? I thought you could just use the LS's built-in triggers and sensors

Better off using LSedit or similar to setup the stock ECU (which is waterproof and has lots of fune features as standard) to control both the engine and box.

The stock ECU isn't waterproof, although the engine as standard is more waterproof than a Rover 8 (which isn't hard).

[Dave W]

FFS get your facts right- MS does not run happily off the crank sensor- for over 9 years there was no way of translating the rather odd magnetic signal coming off the crank sensor-- perhaps you might like to have a look here MSEFI LS1 query and it would explain a few things for you (to be certain you get this- this was a post I did on MSEFI a couple of years ago). The MSnS_extra029y3 code to run an LS1 off MS has only been around 18 months and can be glitchy, not to mention that if you are using PCB 2.2 you have do some wiring quite frequently. an OEM ECU is plu and play as soon as you remove VATS.

The crank signal isn't odd if you look at it with a scope rather than trying to figure it out by looking at the wheel. It's an evenly spaced 24 tooth wheel on the trailing edge and the OEM sensors provide a clean logic level square wave that needs no additional hardware filtering. The leading edge of each tooth provides a binary code that can be used to determine which cylinders are coming up to TDC.

If you're interesting in the development of the MS/LS1 this is where it started for me...

http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16695

http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=23881

There's some info on the configuration in my "it runs" post...

http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=20094

You can't say "Don't use MS as you have a to redrill the crank nose to take a trigger wheel" and not expect to be challenged on it because it's simply not true. MS is as good an option as any other, no "glitches" here on any of the LS1s that I've "squirted". Both V2.2 and V3 ECUs are, in effect, the same for LS1 use as we don't use any of the filtering/shaping circuits for the inputs. I use a V2.2 ECU as my "hot spare" for when I'm experimenting with my V3 ECU. With a new squirt LS1 project I'd probably go straight for MSII now as it saves having to use an external interface for the IAC.

Whether it's a good choice for the OP is another matter of course

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Dave,

Thats really interesting

With the prices of LS1s being such good VFM VS BHP I can see a few more making themselves over here where the petrol heads amongst us who don't care about the MPG get to grips with them.

Nice tro hear from someone who has "done it been there and wears the T shirt" that MS is a options and now a done process for others to follow, its just the probs that come with a LS1 (mainly a selection of broken other bits in the entire LR) that is maybe a bigger problem

Have you got any more info / pics / info re your LS1 build, love to see it / read up

Nige

[zim]

my head hurts now after reading all the above links / posts...!

the verdict seems to be that you can't get an american engine to speak to a british brain lol !

is it possible to bolt a normal P38 transfer box onto the back of a 4l80e ?

hmmmmmm

G

[Dave W]

Dave,

Thats really interesting

With the prices of LS1s being such good VFM VS BHP I can see a few more making themselves over here where the petrol heads amongst us who don't care about the MPG get to grips with them.

Nice tro hear from someone who has "done it been there and wears the T shirt" that MS is a options and now a done process for others to follow, its just the probs that come with a LS1 (mainly a selection of broken other bits in the entire LR) that is maybe a bigger problem

Have you got any more info / pics / info re your LS1 build, love to see it / read up

Nige

There's a step by step write up of my conversion here...

http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/forum/...topic.php?t=194

cheers

Dave

[Dave W]

my head hurts now after reading all the above links / posts...!

the verdict seems to be that you can't get an american engine to speak to a british brain lol !

is it possible to bolt a normal P38 transfer box onto the back of a 4l80e ?

hmmmmmm

G

I;m sure an adaptor could be made but I've not seen one advertised, the biggest problem you will face is that everything under the P38 is pretty tight for room so the extra length of the gearbox + adaptor + transfer box may well cause a problem. If you look under your P38 as it stands and visualise the transfer box shifting back 5-6 inches you'll get an idea of the room required. I suspect the fuel tank will cause you a problem from memory but I've not looked under a P38 with a view to converting one.

Keeping the existing electronics happy is going to be the biggest problem whichever way you went as all the ECUs "talk" to each other. Fitting an LS1 and possibly a matching transmission may well be the easy bit, stopping the dash lighting up like a christmas tree OTOH... What I don't know is just how integrated the ECUs really are. If you disconnected the engine and gearbox ECUs from the rest of the vehicle would it stop the windows opening etc...

[q-rover]

Oh my :wub:

[DaveSIIA]

my head hurts now after reading all the above links / posts...!

the verdict seems to be that you can't get an american engine to speak to a british brain lol !

is it possible to bolt a normal P38 transfer box onto the back of a 4l80e ?

hmmmmmm

G

A quick thought - could you use an American transfer box as the P38 has a LH drop, similar to many in the US? This might overcome the need for an adapter and result in a shorter transmission.

[David Sparkes]

my head hurts now after reading all the above links / posts...!

the verdict seems to be that you can't get an american engine to speak to a british brain lol !

Snip

Why have you discounted the comments / links that imply Gordon Finlay and Mark Adams have put an LS1 in a 38A?

Have you already spoken to Gordon and forgotten to tell us of the outcome?

Cheers.

[landmannnn]

There's a step by step write up of my conversion here...

http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/forum/...topic.php?t=194

cheers

Dave

Great write-up Dave.