Working and making mods on your own vehicle

[western]

I totally agree, I just feel that the way the current license is issued is flawed, as I feel there is a need for practical experience (may be in the form of a proper apprenticeship) as well as the paper qualification. Especially as the licensed engineer is effectively taking reponsibility for 100's of people's lives when he/she sign's the work off.

Pete.

& as a ex-RAF [17 years] trained/quailfied airframe technician [also now do propulsion work too] I haven't got anything other than my post training C & G certificate, even after 20 years on one type I still don't get a 'licence' to show how much time served experience I hold.

at work we have a 20 something young lady who has done a aircraft engineering degree now she's with us to learn how to do the job in accordance with RAF/MoD manuals & regulations.

[110def]

If i couldn't repair/ maintain my old Triumphs having sweated blood and tears to rebuild (to a high standard) them who could ? When they go for their MOT the testers often struggle to find their way around the dash! Always makes me laugh when they try to find the screen wash ! How well trained are modern mechanics with the very basics? no fuse box on mine and trunnions

Plus the likes of Tel would go bust

[jacks906]

when i left college all the people on my course who got average marks (me included) were the ones that could do anything they wanted in the workshop but couldnt be bothered sitting in a class room learning rubbish.

there was four people who got distinctions on the course who couldnt even use a spanner

due to the course (agricultural enginnering and metal fabrication an welding) being more judged on class room based work and not in the real world

dave

[Guest diesel_jim]

.

at work we have a 20 something young lady who has done a aircraft engineering degree now she's with us to learn how to do the job in accordance with RAF/MoD manuals & regulations.

Pictures Ralph? B) B) B) B)

[pat_pending]

"He said he serviced it himself with the help of a Haynes manual and, despite no formal training or qualifications, regarded himself as a mechanic."

From reports of the ongoing trial.

No comment.

[Lara]

Paper qualifications alone are not the answer to anything.

Any idiot can "learn how to pass an exam" as someone said earlier in this thread, Too true!!!

It does not mean that they know what they are doing! nor does it mean they do not!

It just means they have a bit of paper saying that they passed an exam that was probably written by someone who failed to make a living doing what the exam was testing them for!

Experience in the field is the only "real" credential worth it's salt, but then it must be the right person in the "right field" and not one full of B------t!

One of our best guys in our workshops came to me with no exams what so ever, yet he was amazingly good at almost everything!!! Small amount of training needed but he learnt at an amazing rate!!! (had to fire him later due to attitude problems but was a shame)

Some other applicants I have seen with lots of paperwork were not fit to enter the door!!!

A few years back I took and passed my qualification to weld on private light aircraft, (not kept up, so now lost) but the day after I was not a better welder! and now I am not worse!

There is no answer to this other than to make everyone take their vehicle back to an MOT station whenever they make a modification.

This is done with aircraft repairs!

This is not the total answer as some MOT testers are less than bright (no offence meant, and true in any field) but at least you will have a basic standard safety check!

It is "basic safety" we are all interested in here anyway isn't it?

Policing this is a different matter

Lara

[Happyoldgit]

"He said he serviced it himself with the help of a Haynes manual and, despite no formal training or qualifications, regarded himself as a mechanic."

From reports of the ongoing trial.

No comment.

Good. At the moment we've decided that we're not going to allow any discussions surrounding the specifics of the current trial.

[leeds]

In the back of my 110 are the 2 LR manuals for it, a decent(ish) tool kit and a reasonable set of spare.

I have no formal training or qualifications with anything related to vehicles

I do NOT consider myself a mechanic. I am anything but a mechanic. Yes I can carry out simple repairs if need be.

Surely the point is knowing your own limitations?

Regards

Brendan

[freeagent]

In the back of my 110 are the 2 LR manuals for it, a decent(ish) tool kit and a reasonable set of spare.

I have no formal training or qualifications with anything related to vehicles

I do NOT consider myself a mechanic. I am anything but a mechanic. Yes I can carry out simple repairs if need be.

Surely the point is knowing your own limitations?

Regards

Brendan

Couldnt agree more, we all have a responsibity to ensure the vehicles we drive are safe and roadworthy... if you're not sure you should take it to a suitably qualified/ experienced person/ garage and have it inspected.

Ignorance or arogance won't get you very far in court...

[Lara]

Actually one of the funniest and saddest things I have ever seen was about 10 years ago, leaving a friend's house at about 9 in the morning and saying hello to his neighbor who was sat with his head under his wheelarch changing brake pads on his escort,

Re-visited said friend at about 4 in the afternoon, job still not finished, so did it for him in about 5 minutes flat!,

He would have been better off, going to work, earning some money and giving half of it to the garage to fit the pads for him before returning home with flowers for the wife and getting a shagg into the bargain

Lara.

[pat_pending]

"Good. At the moment we've decided that we're not going to allow any discussions surrounding the specifics of the current trial. "

Yes, totally agree, I just thought that statement had a direct relevance here.

We are all interested in modifying and repairing our own vehicles, it's in all our interests to see that whatever work is done is safe, and correctly carried out.

There is currently no way of doing this, the MOT is only concerned with certain aspects and the SVA which SHOULD be there to keep a check on modified vehicles is such a mess that people can and do avoid it.

So how do we avoid heavy handed and inappropriate legislation? Because it will happen and it will hurt those of us in the trade as well as the amateurs.

When anything is being drafted, who will those in authority speak to, who is the voice of 4x4 vehicle modification?

[Lara]

The biggest problem is that those that make the legislation have absolutely no idea what is good and what is not,

To make matters worse they ask advise from other civil servants who probably know even less (nothing as bad as someone who won't admit they know jack ****)

Then we end up with some total idiot who makes up a set of rules that is then checked and OK-ed by someone else who has no idea about the soundness of what they are reading, and so as they don't look stupid, they say OK.

We end up paying for it!!

Bureaucrats, "Failures in everything in life except fukking it up for others! Experts at that!"

Lara with unfortunately no answer

[disco_al]

about time there was a Minister for 4x4's in the HoP.....

[Lara]

Now wouldn't that be laugh!!

Lara

[Les Henson]

If a car passes an MOT when you think it shouldn't have (or vice-versa), there's a procedure in place for the vehicle to be inspected.

If you have a vehicle repaired by a garage and you think the repair is not satisfactory, then you have to get an engineers report and inform (VOSA? DVLA? - not sure. The AA will do it for a fair few quid I think), and they will act on the information in the report.

If you repair a vehicle yourself, there's currently no requirement for the repair to be inspected (as you all know), so you take your life (and others') in your hands.

There have been various schemes (mostly by local councils), to have some kind of qualification scheme (golden spanner springs to mind), but the garage has to apply for it, and I don't think it was ever mentioned that it would be compulsory. I don't think there ever could be a workable scheme to check all vehicle repairers other than what there is in place already. You could say that anyone that repairs a third party's vehicle should be a qualified mechanic (so there's a loophole for DIY repairs again), but the fact is, anyone can buy a set of tools and start a garage in the same way that a painter and decorator can, or a builder, roofer, or many other trades that you may expect would need qualifications for.

I repair some very expensive cars - TD5's, Mercs, Porsche, P38's, and other exotica as well as 'normal' cars. You would think that owners would ask if I was a qualified mechanic, but it has never

happened.

I'm not a 'quailified' mechanic or welder by the way

The subject hidden in this thread is just a tragedy that was probably avoidable - it's an example of how things can go tragically wrong. The world isn't going to be set on fire becasue of it and I very much doubt there will be any new legislation as a result.

Les.

[western]

Pictures Ralph? B) B) B) B)

No.

[Lara]

Very much agree Les,

But as you mention the AA can go and inspect it

Now I know that there probably are some very clever guys working for the AA but to be honest I have never met one!

Pleasant and helpful yes absolutely, but not one has known his arse from his elbow when it car to car mechanics, let alone modified vehicles!

And this is the problem in a nutshell, the people that the ignorant masses rely on for information often now as little as the people they are trying to inform.

Sorry if I have insulted any AA people, that was not my intention, just using you as an example and it is unfortunately becoming more and more true due to the AA's and others attitudes to "not repairing" vehicles and therefore less need for qualified people in the organisations.

Lara.

[imspanners]

A quote from the AA patrols own forum:

When the AA can't get Patrols in certain areas, they take whatever they can get. These are classed as Level 1 Patrols. This means that they only do simple jobs like wheel changes and flat batteries. With some training ( what's that ?? ), they move up to Level 2, and then Level 3. Virtually all the Patrols who are time served mechanics come onto this job on Level 3. Each job a call handler takes is automatically assigned a skill level to it after the call handler has gone through the diagnostic menu. So you see, if you're doing simple jobs all day, you can clean up on Traffic. I don't think it's very wise to come on here with a smarmy attitude thinking you're better than time served mechanics, when in fact you're only being given simple tasks to do. Let the monkeys do the easy stuff, and leave the technical stuff to the big boys eh ??

[pat_pending]

Les, you hit the nail on the head when you said "anyone can buy a set of tools and start a garage in the same way that a painter and decorator can, or a builder, roofer, or many other trades that you may expect would need qualifications for"

With respect Les, is that morally right, if so why do any of us bother to get qualifications? Yes plenty of idiots get qualified, but you have to have some form of checking who's doing what, at least it's a starting point.

Would you go to an unqualified doctor?

And while the court case that we're not mentioning may not directly result in new legislation, believe me it's being watched.

The loss of many green lanes, the hunting ban, firearms legislation, all came in because the people involved didn't believe it would happen until it was too late.

No.....Don't get me started about the AA.

[reads90]

The subject hidden in this thread is just a tragedy that was probably avoidable - it's an example of how things can go tragically wrong. The world isn't going to be set on fire becasue of it and I very much doubt there will be any new legislation as a result.

Les.

Although i think there should be .

Not just for the protection of other road users but for thoose who have moded their trucks. Because if somthing goes wrong they will more than likely end up in Prison for somthing they think is ok . As i have said before my dad was killed in a accident when a lorry landed upside down on top his car at 70 mph. The copper at the time told me the police can find a fault on a brand new car sat on a dealer forcourt. That is how detailed they go into it. So some ruff arse reading a froum like this and going ooohhhh that looks nice i am going to do that to my truck . And then after weekedn he has done it and running up the motorway at 70 plus in his truck with some doggy mod.

I think it will come to a head sooner or later. After all, all the DOT and police had to do is sit outside an off road event and they could pick up gods know how many illegal modified and dangerous cars . after the MOT is a bit of a joke as it is only really for one day anyway. And belive me more accendents like the one talked about on here and it will happen

[Les Henson]

Well, morals don't come into it unfortunately.

The 4x4 world has been watched for a while now - seeing as it's the politically correct thing to do at present, so this is just another possible nail.

Qualifications have been around for years - apprenticeships they used to be called, which you mostly did off your own bat, and experience came from day one in the workshop. Then there was day or block release for various trades (I nearly became a sparky ) Everything is certificated nowadays, which can be a bit of a pain, but in the majority - not. Hands on training is by far the best 'this is a chainsaw, you will learn to use it in front of my eyes'-type of thing. Going from the classroom to the building site/garage, etc and being expected to know it all has obviously got to be the wrong way to do it.

Having a certificate only really gets you in the door, then it all gets real and I would imagine you learn it all again - the right way.

Les.

[Les Henson]

Although i think there should be .

Not just for the protection of other road users but for thoose who have moded their trucks.

Well yes - you are right but there are countless problems with that simple comment.

How does anyone know that you have repaired or altered your vehicle?

The Police/DVLA could have a blitz on a specific manufacturers vehicle (lets say Land Rover, shall we? )

The majority of Police officers wouldn't know a dodgy Land Rover from a modded Fiesta - they rely solely on numbers on the various parts, so a 5-vehicle donor truck may or may not be legal - and it's a lot of work to find out if it's legit.

You may think that the MOT is the core of a road legal vehicle, but it's not - it's merely a test of the vehicles roadworthyness at the time of the test - regardless of the fact that it may be made out of various parts (stolen or not). Then it's all down to the owners honesty - there is then the SVA/IVA, and that's it ( and the remote chance that a Police officer might have a sneaking suspicion that something ain't right) - again, they have better things to do than all that work on a single individual/vehicle.

Assuming that I had just finished catflap , I could drive him to an MOT station tomorrow, engine change would be recorded (2.25 petrol originally, 300TDi now). It wouldn't matter that it now has a defender box, disc brakes front and rear, power steering, etc (and whether or not I nicked the parts). I could put the original plates on him - XPU 583L, and I would have a ticket and drive it on the road as a historic (tax-exempt) vehicle. Honesty is 95% of it and 5% is the chance that you'll get your collar felt.

There are those that abuse it in much the same way as a lot of other things - good if they get caught, they are after all making things worse for the rest of us.

Les.

[jeremy996]

Having a certificate only really gets you in the door, then it all gets real and I would imagine you learn it all again - the right way.

Les.

I have been both sides of this argument more than once and I don't see any easy solutions.

I did a vehicle apprenticeship more than 20 years ago and was a TA REME Craftsman for a short while, but the work I do on my own vehicles is limited as I don't have either the full gear necessary or the regular practise. I DO carefully supervise the work on my family vehicles and I choose garages/mechanics that are comfortable with being watched. I also expect to pay for good work, so I pay the bills on time and in good humour. I have never had a problem with my selected non-franchised garages, (usually agricultural engineers), although I have had a number of serious run-ins with main dealers, most recently my wife's Beetle Cabriolet.

I am an IFA and it is illegal, punishable with fines or imprisonment, to pretend to be an IFA/offer regulated financial advice if you are not qualified, registered and insured. Despite all of this regulation people still fall foul of bad advice/ crooks/ swindlers/high street banks, so I don't believe that more laws help much.

As some of you know, my 110 is being rebuilt at this moment and one of the young lads there has come from a Land Rover main dealers. He is having a bit of a baptism of fire at the moment as he is learning the difference between the main dealer environment and an agricultural engineers; parts are remade, altered or bearings found to keep bits of machinery going; none of this bolt in on, bolt it off stuff or computer says no!

Much of this is down to attitude, remembering that any motor vehicle is a lethal weapon if out of control. I am reminded of the old advert for an expensive crash helmet; do you have a £10 head?

[MJIbex]

It's all very interesting and we could all debate this for hours! But lets face it, even if there was a sensible and workable legisaltion that could be passed to prevent hideous & dangerous bodges. The very people who would abide by the legisaltion would not be the people who need to be targeted. It would be the people who would avoid this legisaltion/break the law who would not abide by it.

Lets face it everyone has stated that an MOT is not a guarantee of roadworthyness, yet a large proportion of the problems on the road are caused by people without one or more of:- tax, insurance or MOT; all of which are all current requirements. So what good would a new requirement be?

Mark.

[Les Henson]

100% correct in my opinion ^^^^^^^^^

Les.