The Green Oval or the Rising Sun?

[istruggle2gate11]

Bordom V2.

Honest answers please.

Remember it is anonymous if you dont post your answer in text!

Im going to be honest, I love my Land Rovers, but although I never want a Japanese motors for off-road, I do have one for road use, which in 2½ years has given me 110,000 faultless miles.

Besides the fact I cant fit in an SJ, and I just dont want one, I will admit they are very good.

Land Rovers are my hobby and I love them, but when it comes to earning a living - I buy Japanese.

My humble opinion, whats yours?

[jjojjas]

I agree totally, Love landy's the same way I love minis and morris minors............. but the oriental stuff has us beat when it comes to the technology side of it. If I depended upon it I'd probably buy a toyota... If I wanted muscle I'd buy a yank, techno muscle get a supra/skyline/subaru, character and stone age technology, buy a brit!

make the most of it. theres not much left now to pick from!

Jas

[Nick Boy]

The problem is, Japanese engineers and designers, originally copied every western design under the sun (no pun intended), and then improved upon it, as in britain we haven't the money or the market to actually develop anything of our own to any real success. the same does not just apply to cars, it applies to everything we do, not enough money gets put behind it, and it ends up just being a bit rubbish and too expensive.

[Ben Jordan]

I really do rate the relibailty of the Jap stuff. But i dont think they make anything simple enough to easily turn into a hardcore off roader If they did i think i would have brought one. On the ther hand Land rovers are a whole way of life that you don't get with the Jap stuff.

[Turbocharger]

I agree with 2) and 3) - Brits lead the design and consultancy field but the Japs can produce better stuff (certainly giving better quality control than LR - that's what their reliability stems from, repeatability in production and assembly).

[Guest MJG]

Bordom V2.

Honest answers please.

Remember it is anonymous if you dont post your answer in text!

Im going to be honest, I love my Land Rovers, but although I never want a Japanese motors for off-road, I do have one for road use, which in 2½ years has given me 110,000 faultless miles.

Besides the fact I cant fit in an SJ, and I just dont want one, I will admit they are very good.

Land Rovers are my hobby and I love them, but when it comes to earning a living - I buy Japanese.

My humble opinion, whats yours?

A year with a (outwardly) japanese vehicle has got me thinking....... it really is great, the build and finish quality is fantastic but hang on a minute it has a sticker in the top right of the front screen .....'Made in Great Britain', presumably Derbyshire...... So if Toyota can do it in our country why the, ***** can't Ford (AKA Land Rover).......

As it happens I got a really good look at a Honda CRV tonight in Sainsbury's car park..... whilst clearly not in the same class as a Discovery or Defender in terms of off road ability......I would bet a kings ransom it beats a Freelander hands down in terms of fit, finish and reliabilty... not sure where they are made but if it's here it proves again with the right investment and good management even uncle Henry (sorry LR) could cut it.......

[Steve Hiatt]

The biggest problem I have with the Jap stuff, particularly the pick ups, is that I find them vulgar. It get's worse when you sit in one and I don't like the ride on rough roads.

To me having an L200 parked in my drive would be as bad as having my house covered in Christmas lights all year.

Anyone got a tin hat for sale?

[Jen]

Ah yes, we have Landies for fun, but at the end of the day we also have a Scooby on the drive - it's great knowing there's a car out there that I can rely on

Wouldn't be without my Landy, and as a household that currently has 4 they certainly have something about them! B) However, the scooby had a slight problem the other day, it would still run but only in 'safe' mode - all it took was five minutes under the dash and connecting two wires for it to tell me the Lambda sensor had decided to develop a fault, five minutes on the phone to the breakers, five minutes to fit, plug the wires together again and problem solved B) Much better than spending evenings sat in the garage freezing to death because it's not quite running right - still, guess we wouldn't have it any other way

So I guess it's a 'one of both' for me please

[FridgeFreezer]

My off-roader is LR, my daily drive is a Primera (another jap built in the UK). The only thing that's gone wrong with the primera (after 130k and three crashes) is the ignition system which is made by... lucas! but it is not as good off-road.

My normal drive is a "new" transit which is hopeless and now falling apart / going rusty after 5 years. Remember the Top Gear review of the Ford F-150? Those Ford "standards" of quality are spreading to the UK, let's hope LR remain a "premium" brand not a commercial one, if you thought LR build was dodgy now you'd soon see just how wrong you can be

[Ivan]

My two pence worth.

Torn between both really. I love my Discovery, 90 and Series III. They all have character and are well proven off road. However, IMHO, LR lost it when they started bringing in the TD5. They lost sight of the foreign markets where they were traditionally string (Africa, Australia etc) and went the "lifestyle" route. I try and go on a big trip at least once a year. Up to now the Disco has coped extremely well with everything I have thrown at it. The only mods I have are a suspension lift and bigger tyres (however the 2 and 300 series will cope perfectly well straight out of the box). But, in Libya I needed to carry 250 Ltrs of fuel. This meant a car full of jerry cans. A Land Cruiser however, can be made to carry 300 Ltrs of fuel using a larger main tank and an auxiliary forward tank. This means the fuel is stored down low and so helps the COG. I don't know of anyway (other than pure custom stuff) that you can get a LR to carry this amount of fuel. Toyota took Land Rovers ideas and improved on them. They marketed aggressively in traditional LR market areas and simply wiped out LR as a market force. Ask some of the Aussies what they think about the attitude of LR AUstralia and you will see why Toyota and Nissan are the big players over there.

My ideal expedition truck would be a long wheelbase, air conditioing (to keep out the heat and dust), permanent 4wd, centre diff lock, axle lockers and the ability to carry loads of fuel easily and safely. If you add it all up it pints to a Land Cruiser. No LR model can provide all this usisng standard parts.

So yes LR have the design and engineering skills but they are carp at marketing and follow tthrough.

Sorry moan over

Ivan

[Ben Jordan]

Ivan, Do you have a pic of your LC?

[minivin]

Jap V Green Oval, well the best comparison I got is my motorbikes, I have owned:

Honda NS125R

Honda CB250N

Yamaha XS400

Compared with:

AJS Model 14CSR 250

Vincent HRD Series C Comet 500

And of course a Land Rover 109 1979

What comparisons can be drawn, well, the Jap bike engines are built from a die-cast alloy that rots for a laugh, you watch that paint fall off after a couple trips out at winter! the plastics are rediculuosly flimsy, lugs break-off when removing the panel to get at the battery or tool-box, scratches pee-easy as well.

Then their's the un-reliability, The NSR blew it's two stroke oil pump and seized (great, lets rely on a poxy little device to determine the life of the engine!), the CB250 engine pick-up for the ignition shorted out (well known problem with Honda's) and the XS, welllllll, right sack o'brown stuff that was.

Did I mention electrics, yeah, green stuff generally, lots of green wires, green connectors, and headlamps turning off mid-corner in the freezing cold mid-winter, I enjoyed that trip!

And rot, welllll...... bearings and bushes with no oil or grease points will only lead to disaster, like having to scrap the five year old rear swingarm on the NSR because all the bushes rotted together, great! and the rear swingarm that had a massive hole in it because it was two metal pressings that were seam welded, such that the seam acted as a natural mud trap! one MoT with polyfiller as apprentice wages wouldn't cover a replacement swingarm and luckily the coil went before the thing killed me with it's dodgy electrics (even the apprentice masters couldn't trace which was the faulty item, suspect it was broken wires within the loom).

Anything else, ah yeah, special tools! lets have lots of nuts on the engine that requires a four-pronged tool that you can't easily make as it would need to be hardened, tw@ts! many an hour spent with junior hacksaws and chisels to do a clutch plate change and then using a drift to tighten is back up again, eventually resorted to swearing never to touch another Jap bike if I needed it as an every day bike.

Then there is the british bikes, leave it in the barn for 50 years, the engines have a fine patiner of corrosion but a quick polish cleans them up, due to using decent alloy for castings, means I could ride my Comet through three winters with hardly any corrosion on the engine!. Electrics was always a down-fall, but as there was no clever boxes to cancel the indicators et cetera it was a dodle to find the problem (charging too much, cut the ol' resistance wire out, fit a 100W 1Ohm power resistor, she's a beaut!).

Maintainability, well, a decent socket set had most of my classic brits in bits in less than a day, only specialist tools ever used were two or three claw pullers, cheap and in every car parts shop. Decent thick steel meant corrosion didn't tend to get into the frame parts deep before you could catch it, and, well, so much alloy to polish!!!!!!!!

and then their's the landie, well, it's got all the maintainability that I require of a vehicle i never intend to sell, I can play with it without some poncy diagnostic kit coming up on the screen saying "ECU says nooooo", and, I got a luvly Whitworth tool kit that fits lots of the truck

So, the japs have some good ideas, however I don't think they're well thought out for those who want to keep them

[Ivan]

Ben

Don't own a LC at the moment, the one I was referring to was ownerd by another bloke on the Libya trip. However, when I build up my next expedition truck a LC will be the starting point.

Ivan

[Ben Jordan]

Honda NS125R

Honda CB250N

Yamaha XS400

I don’t think you can compare those bikes to a Jap 4x4. As when we talk Jap 4x4 you are normally talking near to if not the very top of the product line. All of hose bikes you refer to are budget or near the bottom of the product line. Which are built to a price not quality. Im sure if you owned a Fire blade or GXSR1000, you wouldn't have very many problems at all. I know because my dad owns them. He used to be very big into classic British bikes but one day he borrowed a Jap bike and swore then he would never own another British bike again. The collection was sold and a GSX-r 1100 was brought instead.

[Guilford Dave]

Jap V Green Oval, well the best comparison I got is my motorbikes, I have owned:

Honda NS125R

Honda CB250N

Yamaha XS400

Compared with:

AJS Model 14CSR 250

Vincent HRD Series C Comet 500

And of course a Land Rover 109 1979

What comparisons can be drawn, well, the Jap bike engines are built from a die-cast alloy that rots for a laugh, you watch that paint fall off after a couple trips out at winter! the plastics are rediculuosly flimsy, lugs break-off when removing the panel to get at the battery or tool-box, scratches pee-easy as well.

Then their's the un-reliability, The NSR blew it's two stroke oil pump and seized (great, lets rely on a poxy little device to determine the life of the engine!), the CB250 engine pick-up for the ignition shorted out (well known problem with Honda's) and the XS, welllllll, right sack o'brown stuff that was.

Did I mention electrics, yeah, green stuff generally, lots of green wires, green connectors, and headlamps turning off mid-corner in the freezing cold mid-winter, I enjoyed that trip!

And rot, welllll...... bearings and bushes with no oil or grease points will only lead to disaster, like having to scrap the five year old rear swingarm on the NSR because all the bushes rotted together, great! and the rear swingarm that had a massive hole in it because it was two metal pressings that were seam welded, such that the seam acted as a natural mud trap! one MoT with polyfiller as apprentice wages wouldn't cover a replacement swingarm and luckily the coil went before the thing killed me with it's dodgy electrics (even the apprentice masters couldn't trace which was the faulty item, suspect it was broken wires within the loom).

Anything else, ah yeah, special tools! lets have lots of nuts on the engine that requires a four-pronged tool that you can't easily make as it would need to be hardened, tw@ts! many an hour spent with junior hacksaws and chisels to do a clutch plate change and then using a drift to tighten is back up again, eventually resorted to swearing never to touch another Jap bike if I needed it as an every day bike.

Then there is the british bikes, leave it in the barn for 50 years, the engines have a fine patiner of corrosion but a quick polish cleans them up, due to using decent alloy for castings, means I could ride my Comet through three winters with hardly any corrosion on the engine!. Electrics was always a down-fall, but as there was no clever boxes to cancel the indicators et cetera it was a dodle to find the problem (charging too much, cut the ol' resistance wire out, fit a 100W 1Ohm power resistor, she's a beaut!).

Maintainability, well, a decent socket set had most of my classic brits in bits in less than a day, only specialist tools ever used were two or three claw pullers, cheap and in every car parts shop. Decent thick steel meant corrosion didn't tend to get into the frame parts deep before you could catch it, and, well, so much alloy to polish!!!!!!!!

and then their's the landie, well, it's got all the maintainability that I require of a vehicle i never intend to sell, I can play with it without some poncy diagnostic kit coming up on the screen saying "ECU says nooooo", and, I got a luvly Whitworth tool kit that fits lots of the truck

So, the japs have some good ideas, however I don't think they're well thought out for those who want to keep them

Yes but what would you rather ride. As a daily ride not as a Sunday ride.

And later generation of Brit bikes havnt been all that different.

I love my classic bikes a 500cc daytona and a 750 Bonnie but I remember all to well the unreliablity of them when they had to be used as the sole means of transport.

When Triumph brought out the new Bonnie I decided to treat my self to one. What do you get, a similar story to Land Rover Poor qualty control poor paintwork and extremly poor chromework oh yes and unreliability built in.

Green Oval and classic British bikes for fun. Rising Sun for anything more serious

dave

[dollythelw]

Sorry Minivin but I gonna fight the Jap corner on this one (bikes anyway!)

3 years of dispatch riding on a GT550, 327,000 miles and still working - not many brit bikes could even compare, finish work and meet the lads in Clermont Ferrand for beer or two

Pan Euro - 115,000 on the clock, change the oil, load music into MP3 player and ride to Croatia via Bosnia with a wife, her shoe collection and credit card - 4000 miles, 10 days, no effort. wipe clean and it still looks like new

VFR 800, only 50k on the clock, but still up to the mountain roads in the High Tatras after banging out 1200 miles in 14hours, looked immaculate until disappearing under a mondeo at 120mph

not to mention countless Teneres that ended up slugging through hot and nasty places, GS's GSXR's XS650's bored to 880's, GPz's, Z's, chops, Panther slopers, Triumphs, Guzzis and even a Beemer (why did I do that??) and all the usual snotters that tend to collect in the garage

Then theres the race bikes.......

I love Brit classics but they were pants in real world situations against lighter, cheaper, more reliable competition......... Having said that Dad runs Nortons and I'd still love a Vincent twin one day

[jeremy996]

I bought a Land Rover 110 as a replacement for a Vauxhall Vectra Estate after a £1200 bill for fixing the ABS brakes. I wanted an infinately maintainable vehicle as it strikes me as daft to replace a durable consumer good because you cannot get the minor spares or that the cost of repair is greater than the artificial economic value of the vehicle.

What I love about my 110 is that almost all parts or near equivalents are available some 17-18 years after it was built. Getting trim for vehicles more than 4 years old is almost impossible and electrics for 15+ years old is getting very difficult. Much as I would love a Scooby or a NSX or whatever, how easy will it be to keep them on the road in 15-20 years time?

I have a 34 year old Morgan - most of it is simple, so maintanence and parts availability is not a big issue, pieces can be made or adapted. Even if petrol becomes unobtainable, I can alter the Morgan to run on ethanol without major issues, (other than a dramatic reduction in range!).

Historic Grand Prix racing is currently dramatising the problem - F1 cars prior to the turbo era can be run by privateers, F1 cars from the turbo era and more recently are too complex and defeat even the deep pockets of interested multi-millionaires. This is being highlighted by the auction values of retired F1 cars, unsucessful cosworth engined cars are worth more than sucessful more recent cars that require more nurturing.

I do feel that LR/Ford have lost the plot by chasing the Bling/SUV market and that current vehicles are too complicated for their own good. The long term build quality of modern LR products is also now very suspect as vehicles are being designed to last as long as the warranty, i.e. an economic rather than an engineering solution.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Yeah British and quality, not words often in the same sentence.

I have in my Yoof had a range of Bikes, Norton Commando, triumphs 3 and 5TA, Bsas, and others, then I discovered Jap C7p...

Never loked back, they didn't kleak oil, went like SOAS and had new innovations, that the brit stuff only dreamed of.

My early japs were H750 (terrifying) GT750 Suzuki, GS750, Kwaka 750 turbo (evil), GXS1100, Yam Thunderace and Fireblades....

The britsih stuff got worse as the jap got better, if they had made a comparable brit bike I would have bought it.

The 4x4 is not a lot different.

I LOVE LRs but I think the build Quality and reliability is appalling, even the new ones. Had a guy pick up some bits dfrom me with a new RR sport, gearbox probs, 1200 miles new my mate whio works at a dealers got so fed up bought an IZUZU - for reliability, in Aus Land Cruisers are king along with other Jap stuff, why, cos if your LIFE depends on it always running starting and getting you to your destination LR @aint going to give you any reassurnace.

So why do I bother with a LR ?, cos I do not like SJs (but they take more abuse at playdays as std and often drive home ??), don't fancy anything elase for what I do other than Maybe a G wagen, and they are old and rare and just not my choice...

But and its a big one, I would NOT drive a RR LR as a daily drive doing the miles I do (30k + per annum) not due to fuel, but purely from relaiblity...

Its a sad fact but the attitude of the firm, and the people who build and maintain them is key, how many LR dealers do you know who are pleasant when you walk in to buy something....

My friend who has a TD5 disco, went into a dealers to look at a new LR3 disco, as he walked into the showroom some snot asked him to move his Disco as that was the sales manager parking bay, and to park down the road and walk back

The new RRs are just not sorted, yet they have had years to get it right, they only reason LR survive is that the people who buy them either buy the IMAGE or they are die hard enthusiasts, IMAGE can be a fickle thing and they could see a trend of 4x4 exiting to SUVs and their sales will plummet from the school run mums...

But LR are arrogant, so they will do what most iother UK manufactuers have done, slowly die Austin, Morris, BLMC, Rover et al. all had quality and reputaion issues.

Datsun from humble beginning were laughed at.......now whos laughing.

In todays world you cannot afford to have a car / 4x4 that is not as relaible as the best, esp if your charging loads for it, many will vote with their wallet rather than their hearts thats why Jap 4x4 sadly beat LR hands down.

Sad but nothing new here

Nige

[Ben Jordan]

My mate is currently working for a company that is contracted into Land rover to monitor the quality of items. When i took my Wolf around to his house he stood on the passenger side and said i will show you a fault with this. He walked around to the driver’s door and showed me a big casting mark in the driver’s door hinges. Now remember my car was built in '97 by LRSV and they still have the same quality problems. How hard can it be to have the casting changed or move the manufacture to a different company? Obviously too hard for land rover to do in 9 years

[dottythe90]

To me having an L200 parked in my drive would be as bad as having my house covered in Christmas lights all year.

ROTFL

Next door neighbour has a 10-12 year old Hilux Surf on his drive. Its had at least one new engine in the last 5 years and been away for extensive repairs on another occasion as well. From what I've read elsewhere, the Japanese stuff is generally more reliable than LR, but when it does break, you'd better have deep pockets.

[dollythelw]

Seem to work well as Taliban Troop Transporters though - cant see them popping to the local franchise........

unless.....

the Japanese are a secret "axis of evil" member - perhaps we've stumbled accross something here... do they have secret highly trained frontline mechanics repairing donkey damage? possibly trained in Somalia where the T.T.T. hammered the Hummers so effectively...

Someone ring George Dubya so he can get on and bomb them yeeeeeha

[minivin]

I don’t think you can compare those bikes to a Jap 4x4. As when we talk Jap 4x4 you are normally talking near to if not the very top of the product line. All of hose bikes you refer to are budget or near the bottom of the product line. Which are built to a price not quality. Im sure if you owned a Fire blade or GXSR1000, you wouldn't have very many problems at all. I know because my dad owns them. He used to be very big into classic British bikes but one day he borrowed a Jap bike and swore then he would never own another British bike again. The collection was sold and a GSX-r 1100 was brought instead.

Those bikes, we meant to be everyday, utility, all year round bikes when they first came out, they were not

I own a BMW R1100S, top of the range BMW sports tourer, it has corrosion, cost me £10k, suffers from intermittent ABS failures, but it is still better for all year round work than any other jap bike I have seen used all year round. I have had dealings with Suzuki GSXR's, the Tokico calipers that wear faster than the pads, great

[minivin]

Yes but what would you rather ride. As a daily ride not as a Sunday ride.

And later generation of Brit bikes havnt been all that different.

I love my classic bikes a 500cc daytona and a 750 Bonnie but I remember all to well the unreliablity of them when they had to be used as the sole means of transport.

When Triumph brought out the new Bonnie I decided to treat my self to one. What do you get, a similar story to Land Rover Poor qualty control poor paintwork and extremly poor chromework oh yes and unreliability built in.

Green Oval and classic British bikes for fun. Rising Sun for anything more serious

dave

Sorry, but I RODE my Vincent, three winters and all as my everyday transport, if it went wrong, quick phonecall to the spares company, next day the part turned up and I was back on the road within 24 hrs, all on apprentice wages ten years ago. The Vinnie is the best bike I have ever owned as she's taken me to France, all other England and slogged for a living, she's now going through a total restoration, no expense spared to make her a beauty as my wages now allow for her to be my summer ride and the R1100S as the dog

[imspanners]

Hmmm, being a member of a couple of Pajero forums as well, kind of opens the eyes to the Jap 4x4's are reliable nonsense!

Yes, in everyday guise they're pretty good, and for a caravan tow-car I'd probably have one.

BUT when the going gets tough,

Head gasket failure is quite common, glow plug systems fail (they use an ECU to control Glowplugs ££££).

Alternator £155! and they are prone to failing every couple of years if you off-road!

Wiring faults, as has been said, it all goes green.

No thanks, I'll stick my to my cheap and easy to repair LR and keep towing the jap stuff out of the mud!

[minivin]

Sorry Minivin but I gonna fight the Jap corner on this one (bikes anyway!)

3 years of dispatch riding on a GT550, 327,000 miles and still working - not many brit bikes could even compare, finish work and meet the lads in Clermont Ferrand for beer or two

Pan Euro - 115,000 on the clock, change the oil, load music into MP3 player and ride to Croatia via Bosnia with a wife, her shoe collection and credit card - 4000 miles, 10 days, no effort. wipe clean and it still looks like new

VFR 800, only 50k on the clock, but still up to the mountain roads in the High Tatras after banging out 1200 miles in 14hours, looked immaculate until disappearing under a mondeo at 120mph

not to mention countless Teneres that ended up slugging through hot and nasty places, GS's GSXR's XS650's bored to 880's, GPz's, Z's, chops, Panther slopers, Triumphs, Guzzis and even a Beemer (why did I do that??) and all the usual snotters that tend to collect in the garage

Then theres the race bikes.......

I love Brit classics but they were pants in real world situations against lighter, cheaper, more reliable competition......... Having said that Dad runs Nortons and I'd still love a Vincent twin one day

Now the bikes you list there are a good subject in their own, the GT550, Kawazaki afterall, everyone slaggs off Kwaka's but they keep going. Pan Europeans, good bike, alternator put in a stupid place so you have to remove the engine from the frame to replace it (I know, had to do it on a friends bike), and then they modernised it!!!! never heard a good comment from a person who went from the old version to the next. And the VFR800.... why did they do that VTEC! good idea in theory, shame about it's execution, pillions scream blue murder about the position (a friend in my street has one), the VTEC kicks in and out at 80 on the motorway, such that I know two people who have taken their bikes to a specialist exhaust manufacturer and got them chipped at the same time to move the VTEC upto 90mph in 6th gear, great!

However, the one bike the Japs got right, the oil cooled GSX1100 range, can't fault them