Astro_Al Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Howdy, yet another Rover V8 thread I'm afraid... I recently emailed RPI about quotes for short blocks. I said I wanted cross-bolted mains and top-hat liners because I want it to be reliable, but I'm not so interested in max power etc for this engine - around 200+ power and torque over a nice wide range will be fine. They replied saying that they don't do top-hat liners as 'they are not required'. I have heard that liner slippage is a common problem through the range of Rover V8s, and along with fretting of the main caps represents the bulk of failures (cracking of the block behind the liners etc). I've read a fair bit on this, and it all points the same way, so I'm confused by RPI's comments....? As I'm after a reliable engine, I'd like your input on whether to believe them, or follow my gut and get a top-hatted block from somewhere else (I see Turners do them, among others?). Cheers, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Yeah, right. Top Hat liners came in to effect BECAUSE liners moved. This IMHO is NOT an issue on 3.5, sometimes on 3.9, and er yep, often rwad - common on 4.6s. So they are right and wrong depends on the V8 in question, THL are IMHO a good thing to have if you have the choice and our spending £££ Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Thanks Nige, that's kinda what I figured. Turners have the 'ductile iron flanged liner upgrade' here: http://www.turner-engineering.co.uk/html/v8blocks.html Seems like If I'm after a good solid block (4.0 or bigger... - got to be cross-bolted) this would be a good choice...? I figure if I'm gonna buy a block, I may as well get it right... To be honest, I expected better from RPi, unless I've missed something? Any other sources of solid blocks I should look at? Ta, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Sadly I have dealt a couple of times with RPI, not impressed on either occassion. As such I won't use them again, nor would I recomend them, they pursue profit above everything else, which incs customer service and attention to detail. For sure Eales but ££££3333 for anything other than midly exotic , and he does have a website I'll see if I can find it, http://www.beestore.co.uk/johneales/ but to be honest there are a number of suppliers about, depends what you are after ? Why cross bolted ?....cos you can or because you think you need it ? Cross bolting really is for High RPM comp racers, spend the money on a full dynamic balance. What spec / usage / plans were you thinking of ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Thanks again. My intended usage is an unfortunate combo of things. Tarmac, North African sand, a little English mud... I just want to build something with 'reasonable power', but as reliable as possible - hence going for cross-bolted mains. If I am starting from a block, I figure I'll happily pay a few hundred quid to make sure it is relatively trouble free in the future. Seems like a no-brainer. I'm already gathering parts for the next 2 projects, so I don't want to be tinkering with this sucker once its built - too much else to get on with. Mileage won't be very high (infrequent trips). I won't be going high rpm, so maybe it's unnecessary. I just want something solid-ish. Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Al - try Roland at ACR - well worth a chat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Thanks again. My intended usage is an unfortunate combo of things. Tarmac, North African sand, a little English mud...I just want to build something with 'reasonable power', but as reliable as possible - hence going for cross-bolted mains. If I am starting from a block, I figure I'll happily pay a few hundred quid to make sure it is relatively trouble free in the future. Seems like a no-brainer. I'm already gathering parts for the next 2 projects, so I don't want to be tinkering with this sucker once its built - too much else to get on with. Mileage won't be very high (infrequent trips). I won't be going high rpm, so maybe it's unnecessary. I just want something solid-ish. Al. hey Al, this is just the sort of thing i was looking for- ended up wioth a cross bolted engine with top hat liners in 4.0l guise producing about 225bhp witth buckets of torque and probably totally reliable (i say probably as the engine has only just done 4000 miles- no porbs so far though!). Really really don't think you need to worry about what block you get as long as it is a post 86 "stiff" block- think they're post 86 anyway. Crossbolting is only really important in high revving engines where the imbalances mean the crank needs to clamped even tighter. My block doesn't have the bolts inserted. Top Hat liners, and a full balance of the rotating parts are much much more important. If you are wiling to wait a while then speak to Steve Lund at www.lundengines.com His work is good, at the right price, but he isn't as quick as the rest of them. Having said that, he is 30 million times better than rpi, who are only interested in selling what they have available- they won't help you to make the right decision. Steve will at least spend some time with you and work out what you need- phone him and tell him jim Pugh told you to call! John Eales is good but prepare to remortgage. Some other also good, but i don't have any experience of them so can't say. hope that helps jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Baldwin Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Al - try Roland at ACR - well worth a chat Another vote here for Roland at ACR. You'll get sound, knowledgeable advice without any BS. Oh yeah, he's a thoroughly nice chap too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8CAMEL Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 phone him and tell him jim Pugh told you to call! John Eales is good but prepare to remortgage. Some other also good, but i don't have any experience of them so can't say. hope that helps jim tell him Pugwash recommended him. Thats not what you were saying at 7s John Eales - where do you think mine came from and why i am broke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 tell him Pugwash recommended him. Thats not what you were saying at 7sJohn Eales - where do you think mine came from and why i am broke Something relaible.... Ok, Stick to stdish set up Go 3.9 / 4.0 V8 late stiff block./ Hotwire ECU System You don't need top hat liners. Have the whole engine (inc clutch and flywheel) dynmaically balanced, use a mild cam, and steel timing gears and chain. Stick with std pushrods etc for simplicity and reliablity. Use 20/50 duckhams classic oil, have a oil coller and decent rad. Throw Cats away and have ECU rechipped by Marc Adams with hedgehog chip. Have Big valve heads and higher compression (up to 10:1) for power, make sure anyone doing machining knows what they are doing, if you skim the heads too much the inlet manifold will not line up, I had the block on the eales 40 thou skimmed to increase the compression. Also DIY mod drill holes at the front end of the valley plate so oil (3-4mm oil) can dribble down through into timing gear area, and have a cam button ali welded to the back of the timing cover stooping the cam floating back and forth. Clean up valley with die-grinder for flow and also clean off casting bits inside block, takes ages but worth it to do it yourself. Use genuine gaskets everywhere, use the LR black gasket goo to stick the sump on forget a sump gasket, use the late type rubber rocker cover gaskets. Use Composite Head gasket, not those Bl**dy tin things Fit a decent quality free flow tubular exhaust system, and use decent plugs ie not these silly multiprong efforts, BP6ES are fine, genuine leads or Magnecor maybe, bosch coil, Lastly fit a rev limiter ! There are a couple of "Bible Books" for V8ers, both by david hardcastle, V8 tunning and something else too, can't remember what, well worth a buy - look at E-bay HTH, just some thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 I have to say I've got fed up with RPi - they are a PITFA to deal with and always try to sell you what they have, not what you need. My only reservation about Steve Lund is over-zealous application of blue & silver paint Can top-hat liners be fitted to a block where the liners have slipped or does it have to be done on a good block? Just thought I'd ask while my 4.6 is still sat on the bench rather than in the truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 If you are wiling to wait a while then speak to Steve Lund at www.lundengines.com His work is good, at the right price, but he isn't as quick as the rest of them. jim I think that’s because he forgets what he is meant to be doing That's the impression i have formed about him over the last week He does a good deal though B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruity Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 FWIW Lund turns around stock items quite quickly, what you have to join the waiting list for are non standard stuff: porting/balancing/relinering/modded fueling/ignition/turbo and supercharging and "in the vehicle modifications" and fitting etc. (and that is what he tends to be over-run with). He works in partnership with JB Landrovers in Honiton (which is how I know about him), so if you want to leave the vehicle for additional non engine work to be carried out, it has to be slotted into their (as well as his) diary. If all you are looking for is a stock 3.5 through 4.6 short or long exchange engine he should be fairly rapid and he is competitive. The other thing that Lund is quite good at is helping you plan and build the engine over time (ie short engine now, but with consideration for exchanging heads, change in cam, fueling and ignition system etc). You can top hat liner any ali block as long as it is made sound before the engineering work is done. It is a permenant cure for the buick/rover v8 porosity/slipping liner fault and is effective as a repair or before the problem becomes evident. Hope that helps Jonathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Lund has come in for some very serious abuse as to his quality on www.orrp.com as was sent to me. I would take care maybe ? Go have a look think its under product reviews and then Lund engines, not good PR at all.......... He is a clever bunny and knows his stuff on V8s no doubt, but the abuse has been from many and is extrmely detailed with exapmles of poor quality very detailed in its failure........... Caviat emptor ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 When Lund gets it right, by god he does get it right. Get the lump through JB and then Keving (who owns JB) will cover and issues that could arise. RPI is a waste of money if you want longevity or long term reliability Eales is superb - had two Eales lumps, that's why I am poor Roland at ACR is the dogs hairey b*ll*x and is where I would go if I didn't have Lunds testicles in a vice Forget Hotwire and got MS, hotwire is so 20th Century and so unreliable in hot dry climates/cold wet climates. No hotwire is okay at a push. Holley pro-jection would be better for reliability Don't bother with a 4.6, go for a 4.0 ltr like Pugwash described - nice balance of grunt, oomph and reliability OR GO DIESEL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 OR GO DIESEL EEEWWWWWWWWWW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Would a 4.6 with top hat liners be more unreliable than a 4.0 with the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Roland at ACR is the dogs hairey b*ll*x and is where I would go if I didn't have Lunds testicles in a vice Why is Steve letting you carry out your sexual desires on him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted February 11, 2006 Author Share Posted February 11, 2006 Ok, thanks guys. Ben - I *think* the 4.6 has less material between the cylinder bores in the block (larger cylinder diameter), which is a critical problem for these engines, and seems to be what ultimately limits capacity. Using the 4.0 over the 4.6 will result in less power and torque, but hopefully gives a little better reliability (at least I think thats right). Just for the record, here are my views having done a little investigating: RPi - I might get specific bits from them, but they seem more and more reluctant to actually supply any information. This attitude is getting on me tits, plus I'm an engineer and answers containing absolutely no technical justification really annoy me - if I ask 'can you fit top hat liners' and they reply 'they are not necessary', that's pretty weak if you ask me - especially if they have no idea of the application, so I don't think I'll be going there. Lund. What to say. I've emailed him, he has supplied useful info promptly. I have also communicated with a few others. I'm aware of the whole ORRP thing - see my, somewhat short, post in the thread there. I wish him luck, but I don't think I'll be going there myself. ACR. No experience, I spoke to Roland a bit when I had a 'power-plussed' 4cyl, seemed a useful guy. Eales - as I stated in another thread, I could never spend that kind of money on a Rover V8. It just makes no sense to me, given the alternatives. Turners are looking the most attractive option right now. They are local-ish (I can pick up etc), do good machining on their engines (from what I hear), have top hat liners and are not afraid to use them, can supply nice modern 4.0 or 4.6 blocks or shorts at a decent price. I'd like to build the rest myself, and yes, I'll be megasquirting it (or Fridge will)... Anyone know where I can get my engine dynamically balanced? How much? Are we talking matching individual coponents here, or just testing the whole rotating mass when complete, and adding a bit of weight on the flywheel or whatever? Whilst perusing my library of V8 books last night (I do almost all my reading on the bog - dunno why ...), I was reading about balancing. Apparently, Rover used components with certain mass tolerances (typically a few grams), then gave each engine a quick blast with an electric motor to check that these tolerances hadn't 'stacked' and thrown the dynamic balance too far off the nominal value. The problem with building an engine from parts is that you don't get the opportunity to do this, so it could be in pretty bad shape, balance wise... Hmmmm. Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Are J.E. Developments (John Eales) and J.E. Engineering linked in anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Are J.E. Developments (John Eales) and J.E. Engineering linked in anyway? JE Engineering split up (John Eales used to be there) split away and Started his opwn compnay JED John Eales Developments Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Ok, thanks guys.Ben - I *think* the 4.6 has less material between the cylinder bores in the block (larger cylinder diameter), which is a critical problem for these engines, and seems to be what ultimately limits capacity. 3.9, 4.0, 4.2, 4.6 (and I think the larger capacities too 4.8, 5.0, 5.2) share the same bore size of 94mm 3.5 and the aussie 4.4 has a bore of 88.9mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Lund has come in for some very serious abuse as to his quality on www.orrp.com as was sent to me.I would take care maybe ? Go have a look think its under product reviews and then Lund engines, not good PR at all.......... He is a clever bunny and knows his stuff on V8s no doubt, but the abuse has been from many and is extrmely detailed with exapmles of poor quality very detailed in its failure........... Caviat emptor ? Nige I have added my own bit to the product review! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jordan Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 3.9, 4.0, 4.2, 4.6 (and I think the larger capacities too 4.8, 5.0, 5.2) share the same bore size of 94mm3.5 and the aussie 4.4 has a bore of 88.9mm If the 4.6 has the same bore as the 3.9 surely with top hat liners it should be as reliable? But then if it was the same bore why did they have a problem in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 RPi - I might get specific bits from them, but they seem more and more reluctant to actually supply any information. This attitude is getting on me tits, plus I'm an engineer and answers containing absolutely no technical justification really annoy me - if I ask 'can you fit top hat liners' and they reply 'they are not necessary', that's pretty weak if you ask me - especially if they have no idea of the application, so I don't think I'll be going there.Al. 2p going in the slot. Had similar experiences with RPI, Chris does have a lot of useful info but it can take ages to get to the point. I think someone must have told him he has a lovely speaking voice at some time , I asked politely if he could address the original question and he took the hump, took me even longer to calm him down than it would have if I had just waited till he got there Can't complain too much as they eventually did me a deal on a replacement block when his "rebuilt" 3.9 slipped a liner after only 6000 mls but after nearly 18 months (you can tell I don't get out often) mind you I had been on the phone from 9 months trying to diagnose it! I would agree with going for balance to get a more reliable bottom end for about 220, just the crank and flywheel though. The piston & rod assemblies you can do yourself with a decent set of scales and a steel rule. Weigh each assy. and note what has to come off, balance the assy. on the edge of the steel rule held in a vice and mark the balance point, thus you will know what has to come off where. Any more than that is cicuit stuff IMHO. Mark Adams does good work, not cheap but real tangible, repeatable results, if you don't want to go the MS route, and he is helpful and a decent bloke into the bargain. Got me 28 bhp more at the wheels on a bog 3.9 with only a 224 cam and tubulars, that should about suit your needs. Ended up with a bonus of 22 mpg going home the same road that went there at 20.5 mpg, same temps, same weather, on cruise and over 250 mls before anybody mentions it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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