Off Road Toad Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Command Tyre System - the ability 'on the move' .. and at the 'press of a switch' inflate / deflate all the tyres on your LR.... to any rerquired level. We are thinking of designing, building and Marketing this system described above , but, before we spend £££££s in development (and this has been agreed with the A&M Team who are happy for us to post up this and ask the LR4x4 Membership) so, we would like to known if there is a market for a system such as this ! So, What I would like to do is ask the forum if : Is there is a precieved market for this ? Who would want it and or buy it - would you and why ? What sort of £s would be acceptable as a " Oooo bargain... have to buy it !" What also would the max price be before saying "Get stuffed.,.. too expensive" Would a full fitting servie be benifical as an option ? What would you pay to have it fully fitted ? What facilities / options would be useful either as 'std' or as 'optional' extras What on the system would be detrimental - put you off from what otherwise is a great idea ? Initail designs would fit 90 / Defender / Disco / Range Rover up to classic poss not p38 or later would this cover the people who would be interested ? etc etc etc etc Looking forward to your thoughts, any questions do ask ! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 [*]Who would want it and or buy it - would you and why ? Those who can't live without "the ultimate toy", overlanders with spare cash, tech geeks. If I were rich I'd buy it just for the sake of it and because I like the idea. [*]What sort of £s would be acceptable as a " Oooo bargain... have to buy it !" [*]What also would the max price be before saying "Get stuffed.,.. too expensive" I have no idea but I think "CTS" and "acceptable price" can't live together... [*]Would a full fitting servie be benifical as an option ? Extra service to pay plus not handy for overseas customers... [*]What would you pay to have it fully fitted ? Again I have no idea. [*]What facilities / options would be useful either as 'std' or as 'optional' extras I think a properly designed system would only need reliability. [*]What on the system would be detrimental - put you off from what otherwise is a great idea Certain spindles/CVS mandatory to allow the system to be fitted. Equipe here developed their CTIS, works well and it's discrete (no silly pipes running over the truck body) but I have yet to see someone who fitted it apart from Davide (Equipe owner). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsr341 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 love the idea in princaple , but really depends how your going to go about it , pipe accross the wheel to a centre mounted ''union'' looks very vunrable to all but maybe overlanders (know some teams run it in dakar rally but usally have full spares back up) and i pretty sure a landrover axel couldnt cope with being pressurized to 40psi or there abouts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godlykepower Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I like the sound of this. Speaking from the Overlanders camp, I think that there would be a market for just such a system. I dont know if the serious off-roaders/challeng-y types have a need for airing down. With regards to what I would expect to pay for this system: As it does not do anything other than air up & down, I would not be comfortable paying more than around the £500 mark unfitted. Anything in excess of £800 and I would certainly be put off. Remember, you are designing a product that does what is easy & relatively cheap to do already, albeit more time consuming. I am obviously reffering to an on-board compressor. Having a fitment option available would only be necessary for me if the system was too complex to be fitted by myself (with minimal mechanical knowledge) or if it was even too complex for my garage (who are the only people I really want touching my vehicle when it comes to anything mechanical.) From the system, I would not want much. I would only want the ability to air down to a pressure of my choosing, not have pre-set pressures; and then air up to the pressure of my choosing. Reliability would be my number one priority. If the system were to fail in the field, then it would have to have no impact on any other part. Non negotiable. If the system failed, onward progress must still be possible. I would want minimal electronics in the system too, just a way of ascertaining from the cab, what pressure I am at at any given time. This to me, would not be a product I got overly excited about to be honest. If you made it, and it met all of my personal criteria above, I would probably have it, as there will be several occasions on my expedition when it would be nice to have, but by no means critical. If it failed in any one of the criteria, then I would not be bothered, as I can just go on as normal with a compressor. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I think there is a market for this, but as has been said, not a very big market. Few people bother airing down in the first place, and the people that do are potentially challenge comp vehicles. There are 2 problems with this group: first of all, they all come to events on a trailer, arrive and leave aired down anyway. Secondly, there is an upcoming trend to discard landrover axles for something stronger, meaning your not selling to them. It is worth having, but not a must I think, and I would therefore be interested at, say 100 pounds per corner. The problem is that to make full use of the system, you would need a decent set of beadlocks and the result is you end up spending well over a grand by the time you added a large airpump, fittings etcetra. So a total outlay of 400 pounds, for four seal units (I suppose you would replace the oilseal for this unit). Not a lot of money, so it all depends for what price you can produce them. Maybe the army is interested, which could make the batches bigger, and therefore cheaper. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathtub Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 As Daan says yes it would be great but i would say 90% of the people that would want it & be willing to pay have put on bigger axles already thus your kit would be no good. When you say about cost if it fitted my axles i would quite happily pay £1k for a kit but then would that include an air tank & big enough compressor to inflate 44" tyres etc. To make the CTS system useful the compressor would need to be very quick or you may as welluse a Power Tank & inflate all in around 1 minute. The comment about pipes exposed etc is very valid anything exposed will get ripped off in minutes Unprotected tyre valves last about 30 secs normally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 The problem is anything you develop will probably end up fairly specific to a type of axle, and anyone serious enough to need CTIS is probably going to be running something modified. If the military are interested then you may have a more standard market, but for challenge trucks I can see it being an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 PErsonally, I don't think there is a market for it. If there is you would have to compete with onboard air systems that retail for upto £400. A swith, switches on the compressor to fill the tank and a pressure switch switches it off. You stop your vehicle and take 2mins to refill each tyre. Get back in vehicle and drive off. There are also gadgets for deflating tyres. As for the overlander, no. They want simplicity and reliability, which even a portable £40 Britpart compressor can offer. Even though my vehicle came from teh factory with onboard air, I wouldn't think this usefull. I have a portable compressor in the back, for emergency inflating the suspension/ tyres, but have yet to use it. Didn't even have to deflate my tyres on the worst tracks in the Pyrenees, didn't bother with the defalting tyres in Iceland either many moons ago. The only places I can see me needing to deflate tyres for better driveability would be sand, but havn't come across that yet, and as said, I already have a compressor (well 2 actually ) in the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonwh Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Whatever price you set it will be too high. If you say £300 then people will say it should cost no more than £200, if you say £200 they will argue it should only be £100. Then you get the jokers who reckon they can make it themselves for £20 in the garage. Unless you have identified a specific market I wouldn't bother. A set of deflators and a good compressor can be bought for less than £100. Not sure who needs on-the-move activation so desperately that they can't take 10 mins to do it manually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 A nice idea in principle but I would be seriously concerned about price, reliability, subject to damage, ease of obtaining parts etc. From the overlander point of view I would not go for it as I have experienced what continuous corrugations can do to a vehicle. What is the point of doing it on the move for the overland traveller? I would argue that either a good engine mounted compressor with say a 9 litre tank is more then adequate. On my 110 I can blow all 4 tyres up from 18-40 psi in about 8 minutes from stopping to moving off again. The ARB compressor will do one tyre in about 2.5 to 3 minutes so add on some time to get it out etc say 20 minutes over all. ARB compressor is about £230, engine mounted one including tank etc is about £600 Possible advantages of your system is probably space saving as it will be tucked away and time saving plus ability to see tyre pressures in cab (Am assuming). Important for someone racing but probably irrelevant to the overland traveller. Disadvantage is cost as I can not see it competing with a good mobile compressor or an onboard system be it engine or electric compressor. So can you sell it for less then £500-600? If not I would say you would have a very limited market in the overland sector. The military and race boys I can not comment on HTH Brendan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exmoor Beast Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Tyre pressures make a huge difference to tyre performance, far more than most people realise I think. Lots of people say ATs are hopeless in mud and thats just not true, if you drop the pressures a bit they self clean quickly and grip well even in axle deep mud and beyond. Being able to adjust the pressures easily onboard would make a massive difference to vehicle performance but I can't see it being reliable (that silty mud gets past just about every standard seal on a Land Rover somehow) or cost effective. Maybe if someone comes up with a tyre filled with something other than air that can have its density or behaviour altered electronically, like those adapting dampers do it will be viable.... Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streaky Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 If the price was right then there would be a very good export market for it. One of the guys in our club had a go at making a system for fitting to Land Cruisers and he reakoned he could do it for less than 200 quid. I don't think the UK off road scene would be suitable unless you could make the inflation tubes fit inside the axle. We have CTIS on the Buggy and even without a tree in sight we've still managed to rip the inflation pipes off in the sand dunes! I doubt very much if a cost effective system could be made for the avergage/casual off roader though. There's a French company who make a really cheap kit...but again it uses large flexible pipes that are prone to being ripped off. It's banned under FIA rules for 4x4's. Only 2wd buggies & T4 trucks are allowed it in competition. Good luck with the concept. I'd be interested in something for a solid Rover axle that doesn't need an on-board air tank & uses a compressor only. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lansalot Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Speaking of someone who has a reasonable-ish truck with a list of modifications I'd like to perform that are as long as my arm, I wouldn't bother with this I'm afraid. I drive to the site, I air down when there, and pump up before leaving. It's 10 minutes work either side of the competition. And that's once a month. Sometimes play-days in between as well, but I couldn't justify it to be honest. No matter what the cost, unless it was silly-cheap, I just can't imagine it would be something I would consider. The serious kit tends to arrive on a trailer anyway as said, so who's it really for ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 It would be mint for ladoga though, you do some 50-60mph tracks and then hit a big swamp, where you realy need about 2 psi or so. This is the only event where I have seen this in use and where I would consider it seriously, if the option is there. here, airing down will lose you stage time, so it would give you a big advantage. On a typical 1 day quarry event in the uk, it would not make a great difference, although you could use it to change from low pressure to very low pressure for swampy bits, and maybe pump up fully for side slopes. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I think it's a good idea and quite salable, money? 500 or so plus a compressor etc, fitting? depends on what's in the kit! Technicalities are your problem and not for us to suppose in my opinion. Things I would want or not. My present CVs and drive shafts , Reliability, No hanging or vulnerable pipework, Ease of maintenance. Reading with interest, Lara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathtub Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I think it's a good idea and quite salable, money? 500 or so plus a compressor etc, fitting? depends on what's in the kit! Technicalities are your problem and not for us to suppose in my opinion. Things I would want or not. My present CVs and drive shafts , Reliability, No hanging or vulnerable pipework, Ease of maintenance. Reading with interest, Lara Basically make them work on Volvo 303 Unimog 404 or Spidertrax axles & you would have a market Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Basically make them work on Volvo 303 Unimog 404 or Spidertrax axles & you would have a market Ding! The difficult thing is making a setup that will work with enough wheel/tyre combinations to make it a commercially viable project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I expect that the main problem will be the number of different axle/wheel/tyre combinations you will need to cope with. As far as I know, there is not a good cost effective compressor + reasonable sized air tank specifically for Land Rovers which tucks away somewhere, hence the number of threads on DIY on-board air. So a hybrid suggestion is a bog standard decent capacity compressor/cooler/tank system which does tuck away with simple air distribution pipework, ending, say, in an air connector in the bodywork above each wheel. If you could keep the muck out of the connector, all you then need is a simple racecar type inflator with a dial which can both inflate and deflate. This would mean the driver or navigator having to go round each wheel rather than having a fully automatic system, but has the advantage, for people such as overlanders of having on-tap air at each corner available for other air tools, such as a an impact wrench, air bed inflation etc. This idea does keep air hoses away from vulnerable areas such as axles. But does give the engineering challenges of a tuck-away system, keeping muck out of the air connectors or a self cleaning connector. As for pricing, I would pay £200 - £300 for purpose designed on-board air; say a bit more than a similar workshop system. I would also expect people would be happy to pay £100+ for fitting. I would want to do it myself, but I can imagine routing air hoses around, with fairly large holes/grommets would be a pain. For me, with overlanding in mind, the likely complexities and price of a fully automated system would be of less interest, though I note that many military vehicles have it, especially trucks, so I go along with the point (also emphasised by Tom Sheppard), that use of different air pressures can make a big difference. Regards Richard PS If someone does already make a purpose-designed tuck-away air system, I would like to know about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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