jil6939 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 That's a fair point James. I was just wondering what was in the future as I can only really see it going one way in the long term. That's evolution and I'm never going to stand in it's way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Jon, i think an overall winner is good, but that aside i always look for the top three in each class, i cant remember all three but i know who won each class. if you also look at it alot of class 2 beat the class 1 overall and 1st Class 3 was 5th overall IIRC so you can compete across the classes, granted its not that easy but as these cl1 get more and more complicated alot of them seem to spend more time fixing rather than competing which opens it up to Cl2 and 3. you right in that most only look at 1st overall and ignore the rest but then maybe that is just something to strive for? it was 4th overall for a class 3 car james if my memory serves me right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jil6939 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 it was 4th overall for a class 3 car james if my memory serves me right! Well i have just had a look and the highest c3 car was 8th. This does kind of bring me to my point that every other class lives in the shadow of the overall winner,as no one ever looks, when there is little chance of them ever winning overall. This is a little undeserved as im sure the team involved fought hard for that placing!!!!! I bet you could tell me who won overall though and a well deserved win it was to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 http://allwheeldriveclub.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:howlin-wolf-challenge-rnd-5-results&catid=39:results&Itemid=71 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well i have just had a look and the highest c3 car was 8th. This does kind of bring me to my point that every other class lives in the shadow of the overall winner,as no one ever looks, when there is little chance of them ever winning overall. This is a little undeserved as im sure the team involved fought hard for that placing!!!!! I bet you could tell me who won overall though and a well deserved win it was to. Jon, not to upset Ian and Bob but that was 8th for a cl3 car in rd8 only but they were fifth, i mean fourth overall or so i remember but now i cant find the overall event scores, just the round scores. (now thinking your 8th may be right....) but your point is proven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 i found them, i stand corrected they were 8th as you said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 are we talking individual event or season overall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treebloke Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 (yes i know you are going to tell me that some events have been one by class three vehicles but this will without doubt be a thing of the past) Class 1 vehicles started strong but seemed to drop off towards the end of the series and they were a minority at most events with only two attending round 8 which despise the weather was possibly the best site. Logically, a class 1 truck would/should always win overall, that is the big one and rightfully deserves all the prestiege and glory it brings with it. We won class 3 which was great for our first and probably only series event together. However, for me the highlight of all 8 events was coming 4th overall in round 5. To do that with one winch was a big achvievement but I doubt a class 3 would ever win an event outright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treebloke Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well i have just had a look and the highest c3 car was 8th. This does kind of bring me to my point that every other class lives in the shadow of the overall winner,as no one ever looks, when there is little chance of them ever winning overall. This is a little undeserved as im sure the team involved fought hard for that placing!!!!! I bet you could tell me who won overall though and a well deserved win it was to. I think class 3 live in the shadow class 2 and class 2 live in the shadow of class 1. However, we had a good little battle down in 3 which was decided on the last day unlike 2 and 1 which had already been won by round 7 IIRC. The overall winning truck is a work of art(not meant to be a pun) and if enters again next year will take some catching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saley Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 I will be in class 2 next year if i enter in the new truck as it will have machanical steering, windscreen only 2 wheel steer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 No doubt have an heater as well now your getting older, and a pipe rack. Suit you sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saley Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 No doubt have an heater as well now your getting older, and a pipe rack. Suit you sir. Don't smoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Butler Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 We'll be joining class 1 next year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 Hi John Sorry for the delay in replying but I am currently on holiday in Scotland. However it’s dark outside now and there’s nothing else to do, so I’ll take a moment to reply. It has always been my desire to organise a championship, and a championship without a champion is pretty meaningless! If we do away with the Overall tables then we are left with a series which comprises 3 concurrent events running on the same day at the same venue and personally I don’t this will prove as attractive to the competitors in the long run. Obviously we are aware of the polarisation which is currently raising its head in challenge events which looks like it is going to force different levels of vehicles to compete at seperate events, this I think will be very, very bad for the sport both in terms of morale and financial viability of events. There are two things which I would be prepared to consider to level the playing field so all vehicles can compete together on a more level footing. Firstly I propose that next year’s series is 4 rounds with all 4 to count. This is more likely to keep the outcome open to the final round which makes it more exciting for all concerned. Secondly is the possibility of introducing a handicap in the overall placings based on class. So, as an example, Class 3 gets 100%, Class 2 gets 90%, Class 1 gets 80%. This would be on points achievement at each individual round. Unfortunately I don’t have access to the necessary data at the moment to perform a simulation to see what the outcome this year would have been if we adopted this system. Whatever we do it must be fair for all, taking into account differences in vehicle capability based on the class structure, and not simply be a way of ‘stopping’ those who are currently winning from doing so in the future. Thoughts?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I would like to start competing in the next 2/3 years, and I think it is good to have an overall winner. Yes a Class 1 truck is going to distinct advantage over any others, but think of the satisfaction for a class 2/3 driver who comes out in the top 5 overall! or win! that would be i think more satisfying than winning in a class 1 truck! Just my 2p.... can I put it back in the fund? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jil6939 Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Hi John Sorry for the delay in replying but I am currently on holiday in Scotland. Thoughts?? Haggis supper and deep fried mars bar. It's the way forward. The points system would level it a lot I supose but only if vehicles are built in the spirit of the class system. I say that quite openly in the knowlege that I consider my own vehicle to be border line but it is t m and INS. Building a space frame c3 vehicle for example with 45 inch tyres and no weight but a windscreen and a reverse pull system winch is not in my own humble opinion in the spirit of c3 and the same goes for c2. Having said that it's not my comp it's yours and you may do as you see fit. I shall support whatever comes along as I was only asking your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I agree John, I know I've harped on about hydrosteer before not being adavantage and this opinion was shared by many others, I also struggle to see why catagorise to group 1 for not having a windscreen ???, I understand rear steer, So would a fairer system be more easily and clearly defined by tyre height, rear steer, portal axles, spaceframe, lockers, multiple winches, and unlimited mod's, An incredibly difficult task to catagorise that lot and put it into 3 classes, but newer vehicles are coming along and could take a huge advantage of the present system, and introducing a percentage score from punches would emphasise this. I agree also with the combined score from all four rounds counting. So it's either leave it alone or have a bit of a tweak, it's up to you boss and that's why you are the boss, boss. I also agree with you that it's great for the series and the sport to have this vast array of different specced and evolution of vehicles especially with this years motors coming along, but I don't envy you the task of classing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 So would a fairer system be more easily and clearly defined by tyre height, rear steer, portal axles, spaceframe, lockers, multiple winches, and unlimited mod's, Something along the lines of the Ladoga classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 So would a fairer system be more easily and clearly defined by tyre height, rear steer, portal axles, spaceframe, lockers, multiple winches, and unlimited mod's, An incredibly difficult task to catagorise that lot and put it into 3 classes, but newer vehicles are coming along and could take a huge advantage of the present system, and introducing a percentage score from punches would emphasise this. The first sentence says 'easily' and the second says 'difficult', definitely sounds difficult to me I have always aimed to keep the class structure as simple and logical as possible, which I think most people appreciate. Anyone else got any views on a handicap for the overall championship, which was the point in discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Unless you make it a single make championship with very tight limits on mods it won't be a level playing field, some people will always have better vehicles than others, be that through fab skills, ingenuity, bank balance, etc. Is pot hunting so important to some people that the class structure has to be so narrow and stringent that they only compete against very similar vehicles? Or even on similar budgets? This years AWDC comp safari championship was won by a class 7 car (OK it was one of the most expensive cars in the series) as it was last year by a different class 7 car, and IIRC a class 6 car in 2006. So it's not always the so called 'top' class (class 8) that wins. What happend to going out having a good time competing and measuring your performance against similar vehicles and feeling smug when you beat vehicles deemed to be better or costing more? We don't complain about some cars in a 'lower' class having more power than us because they have the budget to buy more modern powerful engines, and in some cases it's twice the power. We don't win pots in 'national' level events, but enjoy competing against a good level of competition, and occasionaly get a nice warm feeling when we get a good result against 'better' cars. We can (and do) enter 'local club' events and stand more chance of a pot, but that's not the reason we enter, we want a good days racing for the money, that's what it's about. I guess people compete for their own differing reasons and you'll never please everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Last year, our first full year competing together, James and I agreed a target at the beginning of the year. We didn't aim to win nor even to be top three, rather we decided that top third of the field would be a result. We finished 5th overall (IIRC). This year we wanted to be top three in class 2, so second overall and only so few points behind Rob was a total blinder. Through out both this and last year I have had an ongoing personal battle with one particular individual, last year he beat us although only through his late season improvement , this year we beat him fair and square. You know who you are. What i'm getting at is that, as long as we have a good time the night before, don't get any stupid breakdowns and keep running it's worth it. We all like to win, that's human nature but I won't be volunteering to move up to class 1 any time soon. I think a percentage score system is a bad idea, i've not heard much good about the system used already this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BennyB Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I think a percentage score system is a bad idea, i've not heard much good about the system used already this year. What percentage score system is this? I wasn't aware the Howlin' Wolf used such a system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 This year we wanted to be top three in class 2, so second overall and only so few points behind Rob was a total blinder. Not to mention a glossy cover shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 What percentage score system is this? I wasn't aware the Howlin' Wolf used such a system? It doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Not to mention a glossy cover shot Definitely shows my best side don't you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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