ejparrott Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I would get the head checked for cracks and get it skimmed. I had a crack from a valve seat on a 19J head, almost impoosible to see with the eye, but as the engine heated up it opened up and I suffered overheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 You said: To which I replied: So I dont believe it to be the turbo seals leaking oil into the intake, however, whats the possiblilty of it leaking oil into the exhaust side of the turbine? In the red hot exhaust hosuing, this oil would smoke badly. Agreed, it doesnt explain the loss of power occuring at the same time. I don't think it's oil leaking into the exhaust, as air pipe, turbo, turbo hoses, intercooler, inlet manifold and cylinders all had oil in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 just to update everyone, changing the head gasket made now difference, so i thought the only thing else it could be are piston rings, so i got the pistons out today and piston 2,3 + 4 have all got a snapped ring so, i think ive found the problem. I bought a honing tool, is there a nack to using this that i should know? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Sam Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 sorry to hear you're having such bad luck at the moment, when i brought the disco it was powerless and smoking like anything, for me it has turned out to be the turbo (i hope) so have you checked the play in that aswell? sorry if i am repeating other peoples suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsu0san Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Snapped rings on 3 of the 4 pistons That would explain pretty much everything! I think the honing tool is pretty easy to use, but I would be very keen on hearing how you get on. I have an engine which I want to rebuild and so I will be honing out the bores at some point too. I have never done this before so please let me know how it goes. Not sure if this is a good thing to do, but perhaps as you have the pistons out it might be a good idea to replace the conrod bearings too? I am sure a grown up will be along soon to confirm of dismiss this idea, but while you are there it sort of makes sense to me. I presume you have not removed the engine so the crank shells are probably not an option right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 I will take pics, when i do the honing, it doesnt look to hard to do, there is no minimal wear on the conrod bearings, but i will still change them anyway. I will post up when i get more done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 hi glad you found the problem breaking the rings on 3 out of 4 cylinders is impressive As for the honing if the crank is still in place then try and cover itas best you can with rags, the angle and spacing of the hone marks onthe bore is important to oil consumption and the life of the bore. Technique depends what tool you've got. one with lots of balls is designedto polish the bore and will leave the original honing pattern. The other type has 3 or 4 stones and is more intended to re shape oval bores or increase the size so will remove metal fairly quickly meaning the final pass with this type of tool will determine the finish of the bore. A bit of searching round on google should give you a reasonable idea of techniques and finishes required, as long as the bores are in good condition a couple of quick passes with the first tool and lots of oil should give a good surface for the new rings to bed into. make sure the new shells are good quality from turners for example they may cost a bit more but will be worth it. HTH matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 hi thanks for all the advice its much appreciated. the honing tool ive got is one with the 3 prongs, so looks like i will have to go steady with it. When fitting new rings, am i right in thinking you put the gab of each ring 120 degrees apart? is there a certain direction that none of the gaps must face? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 hi yep lr don't mention the ring spacing but the engines on tractors at work required the rings to be as you said so i would go with that. one thing that is mentioned is the two compression rings have to be fitted the correct way up, one side should be marked top, also they recommend you check the ring gap part way down the bore the measurements below are for a 300tdi but i would assume the 200 be the same. top compression ring 0.4 to 0.65mm secondary compression ring 0.3 to 0.5mm oil control ring 0.3 to 0.6mm Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Right I started honing and what a pita it is, the biggest problem I've got is that the lip at the top of the cylinder, is stopping the honing tool from making contact near the top of the cylinder so I can't deglaze that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSIIA Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 How big are the wear ridges at the top of the bores and how many miles has the engine done? Asking because I had the head off a 300Tdi which had done 266k miles and there were no noticeable wear ridge in any of the bores - engine had been serviced every 6000 miles with decent oils and filters. I would expect a 200Tdi to be similar if looked after properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickydicky Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Right I started honing and what a pita it is, the biggest problem I've got is that the lip at the top of the cylinder, is stopping the honing tool from making contact near the top of the cylinder so I can't deglaze that part. when u put it back together it may use loads of oil for the first 500 miles or so until it settles in when i did mine i thought i had done something wrong until i googled it now it runs fine and uses almost no oil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 How big are the wear ridges at the top of the bores and how many miles has the engine done? Asking because I had the head off a 300Tdi which had done 266k miles and there were no noticeable wear ridge in any of the bores - engine had been serviced every 6000 miles with decent oils and filters. I would expect a 200Tdi to be similar if looked after properly. I havnt measured it but it's very noticable, perhaps 0.5-1mm at the top and bottom of the pistons stroke. Don't know exact milage I think in the region of 150k The other thing I'm finding hard is gettin the crosshatching to be 30-45 degrees, I'd say I'm gettin more like 20 degrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz0203 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 i wouldnt worry too much about the crosshatching, as long as there is some and its pretty well equal all the wy round the cylinder u should be ok. the wear however is concerning, youl often get a large wear ridge at the top due to all the coke wear the piston rings do not reach, you could hold the hone right on that for a few seconds to get rid of it but a wear lip at the bottom???? that sounds as if it needs a rebore. id get someone to measure the bores with a micrometer before going any further Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSIIA Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 A wear ridge of 0.5 - 1.0mm is pretty serious, so I would ensure it isn't just the coke build up. If so, the build up can be removed with a decent scraper - the steel bore is pretty tough but don't gouge in to it. It is worth measuring the bores while the pistons are out - normally at three heights, both in line with the crank and across. Honing won't solve the problem if bore wear is excessive. Once you have a decent set of measurements you can make value based decision whether to hone / rebore / change engine. If it gets to a rebore then you may have to consider the condition of the rest of the engine as Tdi's are now quite cheap on the second hand market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobyone Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 0.5-1 mm is ridiculous. making bigger engine capacities involves only mm's of enlargement of bores either side. i would say it is coke build-up. just try to nick it with a stanley blade, it will remove easily when scraped gently. also, if you scratch it with the side of a blade, the metal colour will show, you will see. you will not hurt the bores if you just gently do this. for the 30-45 like pattern, you need to move the tool down the bore fairly quickly. the slower you go down and up makes the angle of the pattern more shallow. steep angles are done by briskly honing up and down the bores. the speed at which your drill should turn is only about 200 rpm. not very fast. the slower the better really. and dont forget engine oil on your stones. you will do well running the engine with parafin type engine flush with the old filter when you have rebuilt it. when it is hot, drain it then change the oil and filter again at 500 miles. you will use oil probably up to about 1000 miles, just keep a spare litre kicking about. stones are good for oval bores, but the multi ball aerohone type hones are great. aeroplane engines are done with these and they say only an hour of wearing in too... just need the right grit for honing, or they only really de-glaze your bores. do cover the crank up, as best you can. you will only have hassle of the debris to remove if you dont. happy new year by the way. richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 All this advice is excellent thanks, I will have another look tomorrow and assess the situation. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Right small update, I spoke to a local engine rebuilder yesterday and explained the situation, they said with the size of the lip on the top and bottom of the bore, the chances are it will need a rebore then hone, so im now in the process of taking the engine out to take over there, i can honestly say that attepting to hone an engine is not worth it , the engine shop near me charge £5 per cylinder and then £20 to chemically clean the engine, so imho somthing as important as this, i would rather have it done properly. I will post up pics etc of the work and rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 £5.00?! Bargain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I was going to offer you my 11L Defender 200tdi block but sounds as though you are well sorted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 £5.00?! Bargain! Thats what i thought, its £20 per cylinder for bore and hone, which i also thought was pretty good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 I was going to offer you my 11L Defender 200tdi block but sounds as though you are well sorted Thanks i bear that in mind, just in case there is a problem with my block Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 Just to keep the thread updated, this is the current situation with my engine Few Questions though: 1. I foolishly took the injection pump and sprocket off without considering how im going to time it up again, does anyone no how? 2. Looking on the turner engineering website, it says possible reasons for have a lip at the top of the bore are: dirty engine oil or fuel system ailments, im not sure what i should check on the fuel system as i dont want to rebuild the engine and just ruin it again if thers a problem witt e.g. injectors. any ideas? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Dont know if this might be of interest since its all in bits.... http://www.lro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45536 He's done a few of these vids, but thought this might be relevant to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 . I foolishly took the injection pump and sprocket off without considering how im going to time it up again, does anyone no how provided you haven't undone the bigger central nut, & only removed the timing gear to remove the FIP from the timing case,when you build the engine up, refit the FIP & it's timing gear then turn it so the timing pin [aka 9.5mm drill shank] fits, final timing can then be done as per the workshop manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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