Night Train Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I am assessing a little project. Little being the operative word. I thinking of a small electric drive 4x4 tractor using front and rear Land Rover steering axles. The plan is to cut and shut a couple of axles so that the diff is central and short half shafts are used both sides of the diff. Does any one know what the difference in drive shaft lengths are so I can work out how wide the axle would end up to check if it is viable? Not sure if I am going to use Series or later axles, though I do have an option on a Discovery axle, less brake calipers and unknown diff ratio, as a starting point. Both axles would need to be the same I think but maybe not so long as diff ratios match. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Hi, According to my notes a RRC 24 spline rear axle uses KAM halfshafts that are 702mm and 958mm long. A Series axle is around 6 inches narrower but can't tell you the halfshaft lengths. Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Thanks. That makes a difference of 256mm narrower on a rear axle. The front axle will be a greater difference as the diff has more off set. I am hoping to get something like 550-600mm between spring seats around 1000mm overall width over the tyres but I'm not sure I can get it that narrow without cutting half shafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Ive got spare offside fron and rear halfshaft for a Series I can measure when I get home this afternoon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbadger Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Surely it's not a huge job to 'trim' the end off the halfshafts and re-machine the splines? That would give you total freedom to produce the width and off set you need. Depending on your suspension arrangement might you run into difficulties width the tapoured LR housing? Is it worth looking at a tube and centre casting type axle that would be easier to narrow? I don't know of one in this sort of size range available though - what are Daihatsu F20/F50 axles like? These are probably the narrowest stock 4x4 axles I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Heres some mm Info Front Shafts - 23 CV 24 diff ends choices of 837 452 841 456 Rears - 24 24 978 703 953 683 640 659 868 643 855 630 Length depends on applications HTH Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Surely it's not a huge job to 'trim' the end off the halfshafts and re-machine the splines? That would give you total freedom to produce the width and off set you need. Depending on your suspension arrangement might you run into difficulties width the tapoured LR housing? Is it worth looking at a tube and centre casting type axle that would be easier to narrow? I don't know of one in this sort of size range available though - what are Daihatsu F20/F50 axles like? These are probably the narrowest stock 4x4 axles I can think of. Guessing a salisbury axle would be a bit big. Suzuki axles would be quite narrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landrover598 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I've just measured a pair of disco 300 axles which i have in the garage, and if you were to use the short side of both, you'd get an approx axle width (hub face to hub face) of 1190 front and 1260 rear. (+/- 100mm for land rover tollerance ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Thanks for all that. It would seem that if I used a front axle I can remove around 390mm from the width based on one of the lengths Nige posted. That would give me around 1100mm - 1300mm ish overall width depending on tyres and wheel offset. OK, I can work with that. The project, if it works out viable, won't have sprung suspension, I am going to centre pivot the front axle, and will only be around 10kW max power but possibly a lot of torque by the time I've geared down to the axle. I wanted to keep to standard shaft lengths for ease but I am not adverse to cutting the shafts and shortening them some more. Being so low powered and low speed I would be happy with cutting and welding the shaft back together, machining the weld flat and then sleeving over the top. I will fabricate around the diff flare when shortening the axle case, that's not a problem just a bit fiddly. I've lengthened axle cases, Sailsbury and Rover, to use long shafts both sides before so it is sort of the same thing and would have been really useful if I have kept the left over parts and not thrown them out after moving house twice with them in 15 years! Sailsburys would have been a lot simpler to work with but more of a pain to change diff ratios. With a Rover axle I can always change the diff to a better, lower ratio then comes with whatever axle I can scrounge. The idea is a little 4x4 tractor about the size of a Quad with a wheel base of about 48" but with four wheel steering and 48v electric drive. I figured that if I put a steering rack diagonally across the chassis it would 'push pull' steering arms on diagonally opposite hubs to get opposing steering and, if I get the right shaped rack, put a flat steering wheel in about the right place. Having acquired one axle so far I will start it as a 4x2 with little steerable wheels at the front like a compact tractor but if a second axle appears then I will add the front drive. I also need to find a set of calipers for the disc brakes and a set of wheels with suitable tyres but they will depend on offset and cost. I will have to go and pick up the axle at some point soon so I have something to cut up over Christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Excellent project! Have you got a motor and controller in mind? And (although I'm not one to let this stop a perfectly interesting project) what will you use it for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 I have a 48v 3.3kW golf buggy motor and a Curtis 1214 36-48v controller. The motor was given to me free 'to further the cause' and allow me to learn more about electric vehicle processes and could get up to 10kW and 72v. The Curtis was both new and cheap, about 1/10 of the RRP of a new one. It began as a simple 'stick some wheels and a battery on it and see what happens' type of project but in the search for easy ways to 'stick wheels on it' I decided on a transfer box to use as a trans axle but the 1.2:1 ratio was a bit high. So I found a Land Rover Discovery axle. I could have stopped there but vapour builds don't and there is no reason for this one to stop there either, besides, I miss having a Land Rover to play with so I figured that having a transfer box allows me just cause to try and find a second axle, and some big tyres! I've checked the motor and it does 1750rpm at 12v and rpm and voltage as aproximately linear so I could have many 1000's rpm at 48v. It means I need more gear reduction to keep speeds around 15mph. I thought a small vehicle would allow a bit of low speed play to test voltage, current and usable output of a motor and also methods of controlling the controller, managing forwards and reverse electrically and to look into regen at some point. It would also be nice if the test bed was fun and I figured that I have trailers and felled trees to lug about a small electric tug would be useful. It could have been along the lines of an aircraft tug but we have snow and grass and mud and that equals fun! If I can blat about with a small tractor, two or four wheel drive, it has got to be more fun then something more akin to a disability scooter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 minimonster You need one of these! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 minimonster You need one of these! Hi Steve, Love that clip, is that an actual 600BHP or a Total Off Road imaginary 600BHP that's really 450BHP Sorry I've just read this months TOF with a cover quote about a 600BHP Disco that's not. Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Hi Steve, Love that clip, is that an actual 600BHP or a Total Off Road imaginary 600BHP that's really 450BHP Sorry I've just read this months TOF with a cover quote about a 600BHP Disco that's not. Marc. Is that where bhp stands for baby horse power? Broken horse power? Believable horse power? I'm thinking more like a small version of one of these: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Is that where bhp stands for baby horse power? Broken horse power? Believable horse power? I'm thinking more like a small version of one of these: Nice, When I was a kid the farm next to us had a couple of Doe Tripple D tractors. Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 I do like the Does, they look very dinosaurish. Well, I have an early 10 spline Discovery front axle and I have started stripping it down outside on the driveway. It is bitterly cold so I am not spending anymore then an hour at a time on it. it is also too heavy to bring into a basement workshop so it will stay outside until it is in bits. It has a new teflon ball on the nearside. I have managed to dismantle and remove all the nearside components, I started here figuring it will be easier if it has already been striped more recently. The drive flange bolts were so tight that I managed to twist the head off one of the bolts. The rest came out eventually with a long breaker bar which was needed right up to the last couple of turns. This would have been so much easier to do on a vehicle, trying to hold the axle still and the hub from turning and swivelling while taking the drive flange bolts off was a real PITA just using my body weight and various contortions or arms and legs. I might as well tried mating with it, or words to that effect! Well the insides looked good, nice clean and shiny CV with no obvious signs of wear. Maybe that was new as well. There was a little wear on the drive shaft splines (32 of them?) but that won't matter for what I need it for. The swivel housing doesn't seem to have very much preload on it, it swivels too easily. Removing the ball from the axle tube wasn't too bad, all the bolts turned and came off without too much effort. Then I saw it was a bodge job. Why go to all the trouble of fitting a new teflon ball and CV joint and not putting a gasket on? The ball to axle joint was sealed with white bathroom sealant! I am begining to worry about the off side now. The chrome ball is more like the surface of the moon (or perhaps that should be Mars) with all the rust pitting. If a previous owner, allegedly not the chap I got the axle from, went to the trouble of changing the ball on one side then why not the other side? Maybe it wouldn't come apart? I hope it is no more difficult then the nearside, I will struggle to hold it still if it is. That will be for later when the freezing drizzle has stopped. Edit to add: I take it that a Series 4.7:1 diff will be a straight swap? Anyone have a short 10/32 spline half shaft to hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 Off side off now. No problems there. No oil either but that's to be expected given the state of the chrome ball. It all came apart very easily. I could do with a parts washer really but a bucket of diesel will have to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 A series diff will fit in the axle case but a 10/32 spline shaft would be a special as 32 spline at the cv matched up with 24 at the diff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 The shafts are definately 10 splines at the diff end and 32 splines at the inner CV end. Then there is another 10 splines on the outer CV for the stub shaft/drive flange. Just been and had a count to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I suspect you are not going to be putting a huge torque through the shafts - so why not decide what length you'd actually like - then cut, sleeve and weld them back together? Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted January 2, 2010 Author Share Posted January 2, 2010 I suspect you are not going to be putting a huge torque through the shafts - so why not decide what length you'd actually like - then cut, sleeve and weld them back together? Si I probably will do, even just cutting and welding would be fine. Sleeving may make it over size for assembly. It looks like I will probably have the diff off centre using the short shaft as is and cutting the long shaft really short. I have now completely dismembered the axle and taken all the bits into the cellar workshop. I'm sure they didn't weigh as much when I was younger! Anyone in the north west want to swap a 10 spline 3.54:1 diff for a 4.7:1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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