Challenge events and regulations

[Daan]

I had a look at the regulations, and I am stumped to see that the most important parameter of an offroad vehicle, tyre size is not part of the regulations. I would think you could drop all these rules and set a max tyresize for all classes and youre done.

I would suggest the following:

Class 1 33 inch, no difflocks, standard layout(for newcomers)

class 2 35 inch, front steer only (because that is what most people run)

Class 3 40 inch, open (to not make the field to diverse and avoid to deep ruts for the lower classes)

The rest follows from there automatically. You could run hydrosteer in class 2, but there is little point if you only run 35s, so that would level it of nicely.

The windscreen rule, sory but how is a windscreen make you more or les competitive? When it rains maybe...

The only event I have seen were a class system actually works is Ladoga. As you might have guesed, the deciding factor is tyre size, because that is the most important. They also have a ruling for portals, the max tyresize is around 2 inch smaller for these. I think that is a fair way which keeps it interesting for everyone. tyre sizes are measured horizontaly with a caliper, the car fully laden, and the tyres inflated to 2 bar.

The weighing factors on result make very little sense imo. Imagine a grid with F1 cars and f3 cars together. You race, the f1 car wins, the fastest f3 comes fourth, but wins caus his weighing factor is favourable. This creates a championship which is not believable for the public or the competitiors, so a non starter in my opinion.

The way things are at the moment, I have no interest in entering, simply because I could end up competing against someone with 44 inch tyres in my class.

Daan

[white90]

I like that suggestion Daan

this would be a good leveler as class 2 is such a varied field to compete against bespoke built non road legal cars backs makes entering an offroad day out rather than a competition.

[najw]

I have no interest in entering,

Daan

That's fine Daan, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts though.

I don't think our events would be your cup of tea anyway.

Happy New Year

[carl hurst]

I would suggest the following:

Class 1 33 inch, no difflocks, standard layout(for newcomers)

class 2 35 inch, front steer only (because that is what most people run)

How many people actualy run 33" tyres, most entry level competetors will have somthing like a 35" simex

The weighing factors on result make very little sense imo. Imagine a grid with F1 cars and f3 cars together. You race, the f1 car wins, the fastest f3 comes fourth, but wins caus his weighing factor is favourable. This creates a championship which is not believable for the public or the competitiors,

The way you are talking we all are competing for big prize money, this is for fun, no big sponsers to please and no prize money,

It seams to me that if you build a truck with tyres 40" and above that you take a dislike to them, many events have tyre rules, go enter them.

Carl.

[Nobbymogs]

i think only myself and Wez had 33 inch tyres

[FLR100]

To be fair there are alot of tyres out there stamped 35" but if you measure them some dont't make that much more than 33", i know someone with 35" simex and they measure 33.5"

The only true way you could implement a fair tyre size rule would be to physicaly measure everyones tyres

[Daan]

I don't think our events would be your cup of tea anyway.

But I would consider it if the ruling was different.

Happy new year to you too!

daan

[Daan]

(How many people actualy run 33" tyres, most entry level competetors will have somthing like a 35" simex

Most people that have a basic car, say greenlane spec would have that tyre size. Whether you want to attract these people, is up to the organizer, but it would attract many people if the rules were like this.

(this is for fun, no big sponsers

Considering the prize of a lot of cars now going into tens of thousands of pounds, people have mobile workshops and go and do events every other weekend, I unfortunately have to say that that statement is B0ll0cks.

You could argue whether my suggested tyre sizes are what people want, and this we can argue, but I would have thought that both Neil and Carl do agree with me that tyre size are very important for the endresult, and my point is that the rules never mention a tyresize. Not trying to offend anyone.

Daan

[najw]

Your post suggests a polarisation of the field, which I would agree with.

You have the basic car on one hand with smallish tyres and you have the tens of thousand's of pounds cars which are purpose built and out to win.

Equally you have a polarisation of events with some organisers applying tyre size limits, no portals, no hydro rules or alternatively our approach of pretty much anything goes which encourages innovation and development.

At the end of the day competitors will vote with their entry cheques, there are plenty of (even too many) events in the calendar and if ultimately we are left on the shelf with an under-subscribed series then it will be our (my) own fault.

No offence taken

[Rob Butler]

Sorry guys, but did Neil say he wished to chance the class structure and wanted peoples opinions?... I don't remember reading that???

In my opinion the class structure that Neil and the AWDC have laid out is perfect the way it is... it gives people a lot of free rain to modify and improve their vehicles within any class... after all, this is the Howling Wolf Series, which is supposed to be more extreme than the Clubman Challenge series... If you want to run a 90 on 33" Bronco's and don't want to get left behind or damage it... then enter the clubman challenge events? that's what it's there for???

The free rain that the HW series is giving is awesome, and that is what allows the sport to move forward... If it wasn't for people like Neil setting out classes which allow the sport to move forward, then we would all still be competing in STD 90's and Suzuki's with AT tyres on them...

Rob

[carl hurst]

In my opinion the class structure that Neil and the AWDC have laid out is perfect the way it is... it gives people a lot of free rain to modify and improve their vehicles within any class... after all, this is the Howling Wolf Series, which is supposed to be more extreme than the Clubman Challenge series... If you want to run a 90 on 33" Bronco's and don't want to get left behind or damage it... then enter the clubman challenge events? that's what it's there for???

The free rain that the HW series is giving is awesome, and that is what allows the sport to move forward... If it wasn't for people like Neil setting out classes which allow the sport to move forward, then we would all still be competing in STD 90's and Suzuki's with AT tyres on them...

Rob

Well put!

[white90]

Well a Forum is meant to be a place for discussion

so why not discuss?

[Rob Butler]

Well put!

Thank you... But sorry folks if I come across as being a bit blunt... I have a habit of doing that without realizing...

Rob

[robhybrid]

But I would like there to be a class that is a vehicle that could genuinely be driven on the road every day.

I still want an open class that encourages vehicle development.

I like seeing people modify their vehicle to get the most out of it whilst staying within class constraints.

I would like to think that the class system we have at the moment isn't far off.

my pinion is that weather taxed or not class 2 and 3 should be capable of passing an mot. I like the idea of a rtv class, I appreciate that this could open up an old can of worms.

limiting Tyre size in class 2 and 3 could be good as it could stop too extreme a modification.

It is a huge balancing act to try and please the majority of the people I am glad it is not my responsibility.

I don't want to see a list of rules like arc has for their comps.

[Rob Butler]

But I would like there to be a class that is a vehicle that could genuinely be driven on the road every day.

my pinion is that weather taxed or not class 2 and 3 should be capable of passing an mot. I like the idea of a rtv class, I appreciate that this could open up an old can of worms.

limiting Tyre size in class 2 and 3 could be good as it could stop too extreme a modification.

CLUBMAN CHALLENGE SERIES

The best idea Neil and the AWDC have "EVER" had was dropping the MOT rule... there is no need for it what so ever... and driving a vehicle on the road after getting trashed at a challenge event is just down right dangerous... to yourself and to the public...

[simon_s]

CLUBMAN CHALLENGE SERIES

The best idea Neil and the AWDC have "EVER" had was dropping the MOT rule... there is no need for it what so ever... and driving a vehicle on the road after getting trashed at a challenge event is just down right dangerous... to yourself and to the public...

Ooh-err not very subtle are you Rob?!

[Rob Butler]

Moi?!

[Nobbymogs]

CLUBMAN CHALLENGE SERIES

The best idea Neil and the AWDC have "EVER" had was dropping the MOT rule... there is no need for it what so ever... and driving a vehicle on the road after getting trashed at a challenge event is just down right dangerous... to yourself and to the public...

ok then a spanner in the works............

my idea of the clubman challenge was for people who are looking at getting into the sport

but then i do see that a lot of people moved down from Howlin Wolf to do the challenger series and some even doing both i think the challenger series should be more like one of the series up north where there are quite a few limitations on specs of trucks as well as driver & Co Driver ability and that any team wanting to enter the HW should do a few rounds of the challenger first

sorry if ive upset people but thats the way i feel

[kellyv8]

what is the point of classes if it doesnt make a level playing field, people enter a class in a comp to win not for an expensive drivearound

i dont think classes limit evolution as you would just move up a class, or am i missing something

and as people are being blunt,if people got out of neil whitfords anus they might just see the wood for the trees. dont mean to offend any individuals just an observation

[Rob Butler]

If you don't like the class structure or the rules... why not go and do a different event?... there are plenty to choose from, I'm sure you will find one that is much more to your liking and has much more red tape...

[Holyzeus]

ok then a spanner in the works............

my idea of the clubman challenge was for people who are looking at getting into the sport

but then i do see that a lot of people moved down from Howlin Wolf to do the challenger series and some even doing both

sorry if ive upset people but thats the way i feel

Trophy hunters

[jil6939]

no big sponsers no prize money,

which begs the question why do people build cars that appear to be in one class but are built to compete in a lower class?

[jil6939]

what is the point of classes if it doesnt make a level playing field, people enter a class in a comp to win not for an expensive drivearound

i dont think classes limit evolution as you would just move up a class, or am i missing something

[Taff]

Morning All,

After reading this debut the only point that comes to my head is the following. When you watch Rallying events you don’t see this arguing and they are in a class structure. The person in his Nova/Corsa is not entering that event to win outright (all though he would like to), his is doing it to win his class., and the WRC cars and alike will win there class and event.

Now when I entered in my Class 3 Zuk, I admit in the back of my head(and I mean right at the back) I would like to repeat Mr Bolts overall win in Sildon 2007(I think) in a class 3 vehicle, but this is a far dream and it was a big surprise for al on the day. But to win the class this is more than do able would be my aim. I have entered for a number of years with the idea of winning the class and with an aim to finish in the top half of the championship board. “You shouldn’t fight above your weight”.

Therefore if the above class systems that are being discussed were to be taken I will go and buy a Nova and enter it into the WRC Championship as I may win against the Subaru on points and not time.

Well that’s my £2 worth, had to have my say,

Taff.

[Boothy]

Seems quite simple to me,

If you like it do it....

If you don't like it don't do it.....

Non-bowlers..... off the green please.....