Buying Lambda Sensors??

[SharkyMarc]

Hi all

I can only find Lambda sensors for sale at around the £90 each mark, any clues as to where to get them cheaper?

Many thanks

[Les Henson]

You can get 'universal' sensors from the likes of Camberley Auto Factors. About £36 each.

Les.

[disco_al]

what are they for?

[FridgeFreezer]

Check what you need first, early RR's used more exotic Titania sensors whereas most universal ones are Zirconia and will NOT work in place. I believe the thread size is different but that may not always be the case.

[Bowie69]

I found a bloke selling brand new genuine VW sensors when hunting for mine, on Ebay, £15 or so delivered, might be worth a poke 

[teabag]

Hi all

I can only find Lambda sensors for sale at around the £90 each mark, any clues as to where to get them cheaper?

Many thanks

Ebay at around £50/£60 you will requied the 4 wire sensor look at the link below Just enter lambda sensors in ebay search. there's around 16 for sale at the moment

http://www.lambdapower.co.uk/partsearch/az2.asp?manu=Land Rover

[p76rangie]

Check what you need first, early RR's used more exotic Titania sensors whereas most universal ones are Zirconia and will NOT work in place. I believe the thread size is different but that may not always be the case.

Except for very high performance cars, all O2 sensors will send the same signal and are all basically interchangeable. Except for the ones after the cats on some Rover models.

There all send a signal of between 0 and 1 volt to indicate whether it is running rich or lean. Where they can be located within the exhaust system is determined by whether they have a built in heater or not. That is, 3 and 4 wire sensors have built in heaters and can be fitted further away from the engine. 1 and 2 wire ones don't and need to be fitted very close to the engine, usually in the exhaust manifold.

[Ally V8]

Except for very high performance cars, all O2 sensors will send the same signal and are all basically interchangeable. Except for the ones after the cats on some Rover models.

There all send a signal of between 0 and 1 volt to indicate whether it is running rich or lean. Where they can be located within the exhaust system is determined by whether they have a built in heater or not. That is, 3 and 4 wire sensors have built in heaters and can be fitted further away from the engine. 1 and 2 wire ones don't and need to be fitted very close to the engine, usually in the exhaust manifold.

This is not good info,as Fridge says Titania sensors use a smaller thread and the sensors used on 95-99 P38 RR's use 5-0 volt sensors which require a reference voltage of 5v to work.You simply cannot generalise with Oxygen sensors if you want decent results.Even companies like Euro car parts have mistakes in their catalogues - I recently diagnosed an incorrect spec sensor on a 4ltr p38 which they had supplied.Just because it screws in the hole and has the same number of wires does not mean it will give a useable output to the ecu.

[p76rangie]

This is not good info,as Fridge says Titania sensors use a smaller thread and the sensors used on 95-99 P38 RR's use 5-0 volt sensors which require a reference voltage of 5v to work.You simply cannot generalise with Oxygen sensors if you want decent results.Even companies like Euro car parts have mistakes in their catalogues - I recently diagnosed an incorrect spec sensor on a 4ltr p38 which they had supplied.Just because it screws in the hole and has the same number of wires does not mean it will give a useable output to the ecu.

No O2 sensors on a Land Rover put out 0 to 5 volts. This is exclusive to wideband sensors which are only used by a few high performance vehicles. All I stated is that all o2 sensors send the same signal, i did not comment on whether they all had the same thread size. A thread of 18mm with a 1.5 pitch is the most common thread size. The only difference on Land Rovers as stated in the previous post are the O2 sensors after the cats. They tend not to be as sensitive and tend to provide an average reading rather than microsecond reading.

[Ally V8]

No O2 sensors on a Land Rover put out 0 to 5 volts. This is exclusive to wideband sensors which are only used by a few high performance vehicles. All I stated is that all o2 sensors send the same signal, i did not comment on whether they all had the same thread size. A thread of 18mm with a 1.5 pitch is the most common thread size. The only difference on Land Rovers as stated in the previous post are the O2 sensors after the cats. They tend not to be as sensitive and tend to provide an average reading rather than microsecond reading.

Well you need to look again,all Gems equipped P38's from 95-99 used Titania 5-0v sensors where 5v is lean and 0v is rich as seen by the ecu.The Titania sensors give a very clean trace on the scope compared to the Zirconia ones which generally give a more "messy" reading.

[p76rangie]

Well you need to look again,all Gems equipped P38's from 95-99 used Titania 5-0v sensors where 5v is lean and 0v is rich as seen by the ecu.The Titania sensors give a very clean trace on the scope compared to the Zirconia ones which generally give a more "messy" reading.

I am not going to argue with you. I have stated correct information.

[Ally V8]

Glad you think so,NTK and LR may think otherwise.

[p76rangie]

Hi all

I can only find Lambda sensors for sale at around the £90 each mark, any clues as to where to get them cheaper?

Many thanks

Look up the Bosch website. They will provide a vehicle list and the universal O2 sensor that can be used on your vehicle. These universal sensors are a lot more common and therefore shopping around should get you a good price.

[ThreeSheds]

There is a good technical discussion of lambda sensors, and the different operating principle of zirconia (the common one) and titania (which (I believe) is the only one used with the 14CUX ECU) here. This would appear to indicate that the two are not electrically interchangeable since they operate on entirely different principles.

I have heard it mooted that the reason LR didn't use the cheaper zirconia one is that it requires a very (very) small air bleed into it (usually along the electrical leads is enough) and that repeatedly dunking such a device when hot, into cold water, could eventually suck water down the breather path and kill the unit. Apparently the titania ones do not quire this air bleed, although I have no reliable information as to whether that is true.

Roger

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Except for very high performance cars, all O2 sensors will send the same signal and are all basically interchangeable. Except for the ones after the cats on some Rover models.

There all send a signal of between 0 and 1 volt to indicate whether it is running rich or lean. Where they can be located within the exhaust system is determined by whether they have a built in heater or not. That is, 3 and 4 wire sensors have built in heaters and can be fitted further away from the engine. 1 and 2 wire ones don't and need to be fitted very close to the engine, usually in the exhaust manifold.

Completely wrong as ally V8 and Fridge have said.

You cannot swap Titania sensors with Zirconia sensors or vica versa.

They behave differently, read differently and need different operating systems

The only thing similar between them is the word "Sensor".

Nige

[p76rangie]

Completely wrong as ally V8 and Fridge have said.

You cannot swap Titania sensors with Zirconia sensors or vica versa.

They behave differently, read differently and need different operating systems

The only thing similar between them is the word "Sensor".

Nige

Seeing you guys appeared so convinced that Rovers ran Titania sensors for a period of time, I have done a bit more checking. I certainly would not say I was "completely wrong", as I am correct for the majority of the world.

Some countries went early into O2 sensors for EPA requirements. The USA was one of them. The early sensors used by Land Rover in these countries were a Titania sensor. Even though the P38 came out in the rest of the world with a Zirconia sensor, it appears they stayed with the Titania in the USA until 1997. Except for the USA and some European countries, Range Rovers did not have O2 sensors prior to the P38. So in all other countries, Land Rovers have only ever been sold with Zirconia sensors.

So I stand corrected for the US market

I have never attempted to state that Titania and Zirconia sensors were interchangeable, There were only a handful of manufacturers that ever used them.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Except for very high performance cars, all O2 sensors will send the same signal and are all basically interchangeable. Except for the ones after the cats on some Rover models.

There all send a signal of between 0 and 1 volt to indicate whether it is running rich or lean. Where they can be located within the exhaust system is determined by whether they have a built in heater or not. That is, 3 and 4 wire sensors have built in heaters and can be fitted further away from the engine. 1 and 2 wire ones don't and need to be fitted very close to the engine, usually in the exhaust manifold.

No O2 sensors on a Land Rover put out 0 to 5 volts. This is exclusive to wideband sensors which are only used by a few high performance vehicles. All I stated is that all o2 sensors send the same signal, i did not comment on whether they all had the same thread size. A thread of 18mm with a 1.5 pitch is the most common thread size. The only difference on Land Rovers as stated in the previous post are the O2 sensors after the cats. They tend not to be as sensitive and tend to provide an average reading rather than microsecond reading.

Ok

In my time learning and tuning Megasquirt............. I've a fair working knowledge of Lambdas

There are 2 types in essence here, the T and the Z ones, both are classed as Binary Class 1 sensors,

and forgetting thread sizes therre are significant idfferences in how they work,

what they do and are not the same

Both try to measure the catalyst works effiecntly, and this means an engine being stoichiometric at 14.7:1

or Lambda 1.0, rich is a lower value - .8, and lean higher at 1.2 etc these are not the same as UEGO Lambda

sesnors - these are more accurate and increasing use on very modern engines

Zirconia - key points

work at around 300 Degrees causing transfer of oxygen ions creating voltages, these are around lean at .1

rich at .9 and a rnage in between, speed of tune / signals changing are aroun 250-325 millisecs, at 14.7:1

there is a jump in Volts, helping the balance engine emmissions by then via ecu tuning bringing the engine

from rich to lean back to Sto (14.7:1 or sometimes leaner), ofter heated to help assist in the heat range

at 300 C to be reached - known then as HEGO - hence EGO Correction within Megasquirt etc.

However, driving in deep water can overcome the hearer element of the heater part of the sensor which

for MS tuning can cause false signals, but thats another issue altogether..

Titania Types.

Look similar, but thats really where things end,

Sometimes / often smaller as the design / build is different to Z type, these don't measure voltage as do Z

types - they measure electrical resistances of the Titania in regards to changes in oxygen / changes in the

gasses and have a large resistance change when Sto 14.7:1 is reached, the system usede (ECUs) to take the readings

from T type is very differnet from Z type, all T types are heated, vs Z types are optional.

They both do the same thing, but reach the results in totally different ways, and thats why they are not

interchangable or all the same, a "Universal" Z type sensor is merely a sensor with no plug,

and will fit in place of say a Manufactuers Z Sensor, which will have the makers plug on it,... nothing more

A universsal Z type cannot be used in a T type etc etc etc

Nige

[Ally V8]

Seeing you guys appeared so convinced that Rovers ran Titania sensors for a period of time, I have done a bit more checking. I certainly would not say I was "completely wrong", as I am correct for the majority of the world.

Some countries went early into O2 sensors for EPA requirements. The USA was one of them. The early sensors used by Land Rover in these countries were a Titania sensor. Even though the P38 came out in the rest of the world with a Zirconia sensor, it appears they stayed with the Titania in the USA until 1997. Except for the USA and some European countries, Range Rovers did not have O2 sensors prior to the P38. So in all other countries, Land Rovers have only ever been sold with Zirconia sensors.

So I stand corrected for the US market

I have never attempted to state that Titania and Zirconia sensors were interchangeable, There were only a handful of manufacturers that ever used them.

Seeing as you state your info is correct and you dont want to argue,all you have done is added more dodgy info,closed loop P38 RR's used 4 wire Titania 5-0v sensors until the beginning of the 99my,only the plug was changed in 97 - the sensor was the same.The 3.9 and 4.2 v8's with 14 CUX in Disco's and RR classics used 3 wire Titania 0-0.8v sensors.

The first European LR's to use Zirconia sensors were the K series in the Freelander and then when the P38 and D11 went to Bosch injection for the 99my they went to Zirconia.I suppose I ought to know really as I carry most of them in stock for a fast turn around when dealing with emission related work.

The NGK/NTK catalogue makes very interesting reading - P76 Rangie,I think you would have been more careful in your sweeping statements if you had read it or something like it first.The 5-0v Titania's have caught out lots of people when dealing with LPG tuning,(Me included till I scoped them)but give a great signal for the ecu to use,esp as the cars age and connectors start to fail.

[p76rangie]

Seeing as you state your info is correct and you dont want to argue,all you have done is added more dodgy info,closed loop P38 RR's used 4 wire Titania 5-0v sensors until the beginning of the 99my,only the plug was changed in 97 - the sensor was the same.The 3.9 and 4.2 v8's with 14 CUX in Disco's and RR classics used 3 wire Titania 0-0.8v sensors.

The first European LR's to use Zirconia sensors were the K series in the Freelander and then when the P38 and D11 went to Bosch injection for the 99my they went to Zirconia.I suppose I ought to know really as I carry most of them in stock for a fast turn around when dealing with emission related work.

The NGK/NTK catalogue makes very interesting reading - P76 Rangie,I think you would have been more careful in your sweeping statements if you had read it or something like it first.The 5-0v Titania's have caught out lots of people when dealing with LPG tuning,(Me included till I scoped them)but give a great signal for the ecu to use,esp as the cars age and connectors start to fail.

I think you need to get a life.

I am assuming by you comments that you are US based. I have already noted that for some reason they continued to use the Titania in the use in the P38 until 97, but not in the vast majority of the world. But it appears that you just want to argue. Why don't you try say going into www.bosch.com.au or www.ngk.com.au and look at what they list as the O2 sensor for a P38.

You need to be careful with your statements. Just like you have chosen to attack me for my statements, as they did not apply to the US, your statements are incorrect outside your country and there are international members on this site that you will confuse. At least I went to the effort to research what you were saying, however it appears that you are not willing to listen to others

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Handbags at dawn?

Seriously though, some interesting tech here.

[Ally V8]

I think you need to get a life.

I am assuming by you comments that you are US based. I have already noted that for some reason they continued to use the Titania in the use in the P38 until 97, but not in the vast majority of the world. But it appears that you just want to argue. Why don't you try say going into www.bosch.com.au or www.ngk.com.au and look at what they list as the O2 sensor for a P38.

You need to be careful with your statements. Just like you have chosen to attack me for my statements, as they did not apply to the US, your statements are incorrect outside your country and there are international members on this site that you will confuse. At least I went to the effort to research what you were saying, however it appears that you are not willing to listen to others

Perhaps I do need to get a life,but seeing as you cant be bothered to read - it states quite clearly Bath SW UK under my username.Having spenmt the last 15 years running a LR garage specialising in diagnostic and emissions work it would be very worrying if I didnt have some detailed knowledge.

Not interested in arguing,BUT hate seeing sweeping generalisations that are quite clearly wrong.Forums like this give owners lots of help in understanding thier vehicles,and I'm fed up with seeing print off's from owners who take it all as gospel what gets posted on the net - esp when they have replaced X,Y and Z and the car is still not right.Then they complain like hell when they get a further bill for the correct parts.

[FridgeFreezer]

OK boys and girls: You're both right and you're both wrong

Zirconia sensors generate their 0-1v signal internally, like a battery or solar cell, and require no external reference or power supply.

Titania sensors are resistive, that is they generate no voltage but vary their resistance to passing current as the O2 levels change. As with the throttle position sensor, coolant and air temperature sensors. The way the ECU reads all of these sensors is with a voltage divider bridge circuit driven from the internal 5v reference across a resistor of known value. The ratio of the two determines the voltage at the middle point from 0-5v.

So, if you pull the connector off, no current can flow and hence you will measure +5v on one pin and 0v on the other. With the sensor in the circuit, it will vary from low to high resistance and hence the voltage across it will vary from low to high.

So the original advice hasn't changed - check what you need before buying a universal one. The info above should make that check pretty easy with a multimeter.

Now, you may all go about your business.

[Ally V8]

But...... I never made any comments or statements all along about how T or Z sensors work - All I was trying to get across is the importance of using the correct sensor.Which is easy enough to do,as is working out how a particular type of sensor works.Maybe I should stop banging my head against the wall and treat all my customers with a main dealer service manager attitude rather than try to help them understand whats going on under the bonnet.(Hood ?)

Perhaps its time I closed my garage and found a more satisfying way to stay out of the wifes way .......

[Orgasmic Farmer]

Just broke a 3.9 Disco and have the downpipes here with Lamda sensors in. Unfortunately I cut the wires near the connectors but there is about 50cm of wire on each still. The truck was in good order so I guess the sensors are still OK. Not sure how easy they are to remove though! Welcome to have them for beer tokens and postage. Going for scrap otherwise

Mark