Winch Question

[stuck]

Gents,

Forgive me if this is a FAQ but a mate of mine is thinking of building a challenge truck.

He's asked me a question about winches that I can't answer so any advice would be appreciated.

What are the pros and cons of a hydraulic winch (PTO driven) versus something like a Gigglepin twin motor Warn?

Thanks in advance,

Mick.

[thefarrier]

Gents,

Forgive me if this is a FAQ but a mate of mine is thinking of building a challenge truck.

He's asked me a question about winches that I can't answer so any advice would be appreciated.

What are the pros and cons of a hydraulic winch (PTO driven) versus something like a Gigglepin twin motor Warn?

Thanks in advance,

Mick.

they both have pro and cons the biggest is the cost, hydraulic would need a pto or belt driven pump. If he is starting out i would say a standard warn 8274 up front and goldfish on the back. Both good winches easy to install cheap to maintain and could to most challenges fine. the giggle twin motor set up is a great bit of kit and i hope to get one soon, have a look at this clip

that thing has some power. think gp setup would winch faster than hydraulic aswell.

[Anderzander]

There are some real experts on this forum and I'm not one of them - with that caveat!

Hydraulic pros:

is very powerful and will pull all day long

Hydraulic cons:

Very difficult to drive assist, needs to have a pto to be quick, needs the engine running to work, expensive and complex

Electric pros:

Doesn't need the engine running, relatively simple to set up

Electric cons:

Won't pull all day, more expensive that it first seems to get a decent setup, not the same power potential as hydraulic

[j90 mud]

having used both in competition over the last few years my preference is for electric for most uk events.

various reasons all of which have been discussed many times on many forums.

take the scotia extreme 4x4 event last weekend the cars there were roucgly as follows

1 pto mechancial winch

2-3 hrydralic winched cars

19 electric winch car

some had a mix of all the above

if your just starting out 2 good std winches with warranty is all you need

[saley]

having used both in competition over the last few years my preference is for electric for most uk events.

various reasons all of which have been discussed many times on many forums.

take the scotia extreme 4x4 event last weekend the cars there were roucgly as follows

1 pto mechancial winch

2-3 hrydralic winched cars

19 electric winch car

some had a mix of all the above

if your just starting out 2 good std winches with warranty is all you need

And the results were

Rob Tunner Hydraulic 1st

Pete Whitman PTO 2nd

Kev Pocock GP electric 3rd

AWDC last 2 year overall winner Rob Tunner Hydraulic

And Hydraulics have won every winching special stage in the Howlinwolf in at least half the time of any electric winch

[MrHT]

Gents,

Forgive me if this is a FAQ but a mate of mine is thinking of building a challenge truck.

He's asked me a question about winches that I can't answer so any advice would be appreciated.

What are the pros and cons of a hydraulic winch (PTO driven) versus something like a Gigglepin twin motor Warn?

Thanks in advance,

Mick.

question is how much does he have to spend?

Who's events is he entering?

is he doing this because he wants to see what it's like or is he already committed and wants to try hard to win?

[Boothy]

Speaking from expierence of a couple of years of Howlin Wolf's and numerous other events and having a modified 8274's, if there was a winching special stage i.e. tyre pulls or the likes and the PROPER hydraulic winches were competing i.e. Rob Tunnah or Saley then I would miss it and find an alternative as I knew we didn't stand a chance if it was down to pure speed, they are very very fast and will do it all day long, as long as the engine is running.

Cost wise probably cheaper with hydraulics after you've bought a donor 8274 then a twin top housing, moddified brake, freespool, pair of Bowmotors, strenghened mainshaft, pair of Allbrights, dual or pair of large alternators, bloody big battery scource, and then your left with something that WILL need a lot of maintenance, hydraulics once fitted are pretty much fit and forget apart from the odd filter (if fitted).

I use 8274's but if I was starting from scratch I would have a very serious look at a hydraulic COMPETITION set up.

Also when you look at the Glwynn Lewis video Nick Bird went through before him faster with a hydraulic winch and shoved most of the crud out of the way, if I find the link I'll post it here.

Food for thought

[sj_4x4]

Hydraulic cons:

Very difficult to drive assist, needs to have a pto to be quick, needs the engine running to work, expensive and complex

Hydraulics are not complex, you don't need PTO to be quick, and drive assist is not a problem, tho with the power you don't often need to ;-)

When the twin motor 8274's lets you down, hydraulic get you out :-)

[stuck]

Thanks for the replies.

My mate is just getting in to challenge events but has a large budget (I'm glad Scrapiron aren't still around to fleece him)

Hydraulic is probably his best option as he doesn't know one end of a spanner from the other.

One of the posts had a link to "Red Winches" any coments?

I will admit to having a vested interest as when he gets bored the winch will probably come my way.

[saley]

I think this is the vid

Johnathon had a engine problem which he sorted on finishing the section his air filter had sucked itself inside out down the snorkel causing it to black smoke as vid and loss of power he kicked it a long way when he found it

would have liked to see a leccy winch clean that section first

AFAIK the saley winch is the only hydraulic with remote freespool

[MrHT]

you got the cash speak to saley. still cheaper than a pair of decked out gp's

[zim]

AFAIK the saley winch is the only hydraulic with remote freespool

[sj_4x4]

AFAIK the saley winch is the only hydraulic with remote freespool

At the moment

[MrHT]

freespool wins that i'm sure about. the time gained is at least a min each time you get your winch out if not longer.

[carl hurst]

At the moment

Wondered how long it would take for the copy brigade to move in, seems like its the turn of the free spools on various brands to be copied,

Carl.

[B reg 90]

I started building my own hydraulic winch system about 4 years ago. Life got in the way and it's still not finished and tested. So I suppose my opinions could be seen as 'untested', however,

Some comments on the previous posts:

If your mechanically less able then electric is the way to go in my mind.

The ability to drive assist is a big advantage. It takes the load off the tree/anchor. In some circumstances being able to drive assist is the differance between the tree/anchor coming out of loose ground or not. Additionally when you have a steep ledge the rotation/dirve of the wheels helps lift the axles/vehicles up, rather than massively strain the winch as it has poor mechanical advantage in this situation.

The red winch is pulling a fair load by the look of it. However as the vehicle is stationary you can't tell if it will work as a package with the vehicle, i.e. can he drive assist. You could do the same pull with a cheep and chearful old mechanical superwinch.

When I started looking at my options Jim's gigglepin winches were only just on test on his motor. If I was starting now I would have a much more dificult choice as the twin motor winches are good. However in my experience they are the only electrical winch worth considering for competition. A single motor 8274 can be beaten hands down by a £400 mechanical PTO winch if you have a big ground anchor and know what your doing.

Adrian

[Boothy]

Just be wary how much rope you can get on the Red or the Milemarker, I know the Saley holds easily 150ft of 12mm and will adapt a drum to any length, just look at the length of the Mitsimogs.

[sj_4x4]

I started building my own hydraulic winch system about 4 years ago. Life got in the way and it's still not finished and tested. So I suppose my opinions could be seen as 'untested', however,

Some comments on the previous posts:

If your mechanically less able then electric is the way to go in my mind.

Not sure I agree, the plumbing is the same, only the wires are full of fluid rather then electirckery.

The ability to drive assist is a big advantage. It takes the load off the tree/anchor. In some circumstances being able to drive assist is the differance between the tree/anchor coming out of loose ground or not. Additionally when you have a steep ledge the rotation/dirve of the wheels helps lift the axles/vehicles up, rather than massively strain the winch as it has poor mechanical advantage in this situation.

You can drive assist with a hydraulic setup, and I would never winch off something that may come loose !

The red winch is pulling a fair load by the look of it. However as the vehicle is stationary you can't tell if it will work as a package with the vehicle, i.e. can he drive assist. You could do the same pull with a cheep and chearful old mechanical superwinch.

That unimog hybrid in the bog was a massive load, I doubt any electric winch would have got it out in a month of Sundays. As I say above, you can drive assist with a hydraulic setup, however more often then not you don't need to, as the the power of the winch is more then enuf.

The RED winch is standard fitment on the Supacat Jackal so has been thru a very strict MOD procurement process, civilian version is made to the same spec (with a smaller motor) so it can easily out perform the specs quoted, a lot of cheap winches don't even reach the specs quoted.

Booty, I have 150ft of 12mm on my RED Winch.

[carl hurst]

Booty, I have 150ft of 12mm on my RED Winch.

On the first Saley winch we put 150ft on and it looked lost, would easy take another 150,and that was only on a 12 inch long drum,

Out of interest, who on the challenge scene is running red winchs, just to compare them pound for pound in a real competition situation,

Carl.

[B reg 90]

SJ_4x4,

Not sure that I agree with your view.

Electric - Very standard systems - bolt on winch. Buy right size cable. Connect as per wiring diagram, GO....

Hydraulic - Less standardisation, considerably more hazzardous if the hydraulic leaks, hoses to be made up, and so on....

How ever just my opinion.

My point with the unimog/red winch was that a superwinch H14 or the older 525 mechanical winches run off the transfer box PTO would do the same job just as effortlessly and far cheaper. How ever I am not saying that they are a 'better' winch, just an observation.

Just because the red winch has been MOD approved doesn't mean that it will be any use in a competition. It means it will be reliable and will pull the rated load/speed. To be any use in competition it the winch speed and wheel speed need to be matched. This depends on:

Hydrualic pump speed/size

motor size

winch gearing

winch drum diameter

transmission gearing

wheel size

Ability for the engine to provide suffcient torque - the big issue

Adrian

[B reg 90]

Last point - drive assist. You need to be able to do it. If you have a large flat bog and small trees you need to drive the wheel to take the load of the small tree. Alternatively break out the ground anchor. In some ground it will pull out. Drive assist and you will reduce winch load and reduce the likelyhood of the anchor pulling out.

No dirve assist and your out with the shovel/out of the competition/camping where your stuck...

[McS Junior]

That unimog hybrid in the bog was a massive load, I doubt any electric winch would have got it out in a month of Sundays. As I say above, you can drive assist with a hydraulic setup, however more often then not you don't need to, as the the power of the winch is more then enuf.

The RED winch is standard fitment on the Supacat Jackal so has been thru a very strict MOD procurement process, civilian version is made to the same spec (with a smaller motor) so it can easily out perform the specs quoted, a lot of cheap winches don't even reach the specs quoted.

Well, I've stayed out of this up to now, as everyone's opinion is different on this matter, but its only right that I should try and correct utter nonsense when I see it. So....

1. Of course an electric winch could have pulled out Chris's Hybrid. Otherwise, all the equally-weighted challenge trucks out there would never get out of similar situations with their electric winches! I will caveat that by saying that some may need a double line pull; however, this only shows that the Red winch has a greater pull, not necessarily all that relevant in a thread about competition winches...

2. Once again you have forgotten that we are talking about competition winching here. Of course you want to use drive assist, for a whole number of reasons that have already been eluded to. We all understand that you can use drive assist with a hydro system, the point that is being made is that it can be more difficult to achieve depending on how the pump for the system is driven.

3. "Enuf" is not a word. Picky I know, but now I've started.....

4. Your information on the Jackal is wrong, a point I have made at least half a dozen times now, both on forums and in person to Red Winch representatives. The vast majority of Jackals in theatre have superwinches. This is not a slight on your product nor a recommendation for Superwinch, just plain fact. Go on, ask me how I know...

And breathe... Now for my twopenceworth. I've worked with top end competition hydro and electric setups (and mech PTO for that matter) and I firmly believe its down to personal choice and what specific events/event types you are doing.

When we competed in Eastern Europe, nothing could touch hydro or PTO. We didnt winch as often as on UK events, but when we did it was for long periods of time under very large loadings and electric motors simply couldnt stay the course.

For UK stuff, a GP twin motor is very much de rigeur and they have proved to be very successful indeed. They rule the roost in the southern hemisphere because they require lower loads and very fast line speed.

Mech PTO is great but I like how Bathtub Pete has his set up, namely as a backup winch when his GP84 isnt an option. With a freespool on it, that will be a very powerful tool.

To get back to the original post, Mick your friend really has 2 options for top end competition (since you've stated he's not mechanically-minded). Firstly a twin motor 8274 with freespool setup, whether that be Gigglepin, Tibus, Flamin Fabrication, Cheviot 4x4, Delta Tek of a mixture thereof. To complement that he's going to need to consider wiring, alternators, batteries etc. Secondly, on the hydro side there's Saley winches. I dont mean this as a slight to Red Winches, but Saley's product is tried and tested on the competition scene and has that all important freespool. If he goes down this route he'll need to look at a pump (and how to drive it), hoses, tank, pressure release valve, valve block/spools etc. The total cost is, roughly, going to end up about the same.

Mick, I hope that helps in some small way! If I can assist any further, please dont hesitate to drop me a PM.

Regards,

Ross

[robhybrid]

I would love to see a hydraulic set up using a separate engine to the drive wheels so that enough power to stop the engine from stalling whilst drive assist does not affect the winching and vice versa.

I am confident that we shall see a lot more development on hydraulic set ups in the near future...

[Anderzander]

It would be nice if the hydraulics could drive the wheels too.

[MrHT]

It would be nice if the hydraulics could drive the wheels too.

saleys winch is engine driven not pto so drive assist is all possible. Plus due to alot of time and calculations it goes at the same speed as the winch. a very well put together winch with fernominal power.