M&S Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Worse than this Yes, it was pretty unstable (I know because I was driving!) I know why having read the above, mostly down to the nose sitting too high and also the centre of gravity of the fire engine was very high. Everything that passed us caused a wobble, as did every bump in the road and changes in direction. I kept my speed to 35mph average, 40mph max...very, very gentle braking did bring it back under control. Still, I shall not be repeating the experience and I shall be buying a drop plate for my towbar - it looked fine until the SLS levelled the vehicle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inaine Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Worse than this Yes, it was pretty unstable (I know because I was driving!) I know why having read the above, mostly down to the nose sitting too high and also the centre of gravity of the fire engine was very high. Everything that passed us caused a wobble, as did every bump in the road and changes in direction. I kept my speed to 35mph average, 40mph max...very, very gentle braking did bring it back under control. Still, I shall not be repeating the experience and I shall be buying a drop plate for my towbar - it looked fine until the SLS levelled the vehicle thats nasty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 I'll try to find something that states clearly that grandfather rights have been closed on B+E. bare with eme though, I just finished marking year 13 coursework, I still have year 12 to do before next week and I'm supposed to be on paternity leave. In fact, is that a baby wailing I hear in the background...... B+E is required for any large trailer, the definition varies but here are the basics Below 750kg a trialer doesn't need brakes and is never classed as large, the car maker still has to say you can tow the weight though (no KA for example) The trailer full can't weight more than the car empty (so the Escort van with a MAM of 1,800kg, great but the unladen weight isn't high enough) or it becomes a larger trailer. The gross train weight has to stay below 3,500kg if the trailer mam is above 750kg, otherwise a car up to 3,500kg can tow a 750kg trailer. It doesn't matter how much you load the trailer, it's the stated MAM that counts. the only exception is that you can load a trailer up to the towcar's trailer limit (and not beyond) if the MAM of the trailer exceeds that limit. This has no effect on licence requirement though. Comfused yet? I am. Need to sleep................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wack61 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The thing that always amazes me is the more expensive the towing car, the faster the speed, a Range Rover towing a massive caravan came past me on the M6 doing 75mph last week, no wonder they end up as matchwood Last summer a disco towing a caravan was in front of me, the van started to sway, the motorway was packed but within 20 seconds she had 1/2 a mile to herself, it got worse and worse as she was going downhill, at one point she was being thrown across 2 lanes and back with the disco on 2 wheels, we'd all virtually stopped by now but she was really lucky and slowed it without crashing. As I drove past they'd stopped on the hard shoulder, she was screaming at the guy in the passenger seat, I bet it was the last time she ever towed anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brownlie Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 B+E is required for any large trailer, the definition varies but here are the basics Below 750kg a trialer doesn't need brakes and is never classed as large, the car maker still has to say you can tow the weight though (no KA for example) The trailer full can't weight more than the car empty (so the Escort van with a MAM of 1,800kg, great but the unladen weight isn't high enough) or it becomes a larger trailer. The gross train weight has to stay below 3,500kg if the trailer mam is above 750kg, otherwise a car up to 3,500kg can tow a 750kg trailer. It doesn't matter how much you load the trailer, it's the stated MAM that counts. the only exception is that you can load a trailer up to the towcar's trailer limit (and not beyond) if the MAM of the trailer exceeds that limit. This has no effect on licence requirement though. Comfused yet? I am. Need to sleep................. Grandfather rights are "closed" which means existing licence holders can retain and use them however, if you loose your licence and have to re-sit your test you revert to current standard and have to sit towing tests, C1, C1+E etc... Its all about MAM, you can tow a large or braked trailer without a B+E as long as the added MAM car and trailer does not exceed 3500kg. If the vehicle has a MAM of 3500kg then the maximum permissible train weight is 4250kg otherwise B+E applies. Using the escort with a MAM of 1800kg and a trailer of MAM 1500kg, the trailer un-laiden is going to be less than the car weight, and the trailer loaded is going to be less than the weight of the car. Generally a normal family car and a standard 2-4 berth caravan does not require B+E. All this is from the DVLA website; Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM. For example: a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle Whereas the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold. Towing caravans As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brownlie Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 The thing that always amazes me is the more expensive the towing car, the faster the speed, a Range Rover towing a massive caravan came past me on the M6 doing 75mph last week, no wonder they end up as matchwood Last summer a disco towing a caravan was in front of me, the van started to sway, the motorway was packed but within 20 seconds she had 1/2 a mile to herself, it got worse and worse as she was going downhill, at one point she was being thrown across 2 lanes and back with the disco on 2 wheels, we'd all virtually stopped by now but she was really lucky and slowed it without crashing. As I drove past they'd stopped on the hard shoulder, she was screaming at the guy in the passenger seat, I bet it was the last time she ever towed anything Towing with a van/4x4 is more stable, vehicle weight and aerodynamics come into play?? I could tow my caravan at 55mph behind the Mitsubishi Lancer before it got messy, but it would sit happy at 65-70 behind the Transit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I've done a bit of towing, before always a closed trailer with construction supplies, now a car trailer with another Landy on it and on occasion a 7.5m fishing boat. The closed trailer always behaved excellently, except for one time after dropping of half of the stuff and not taking the time to redistribute the load... Despite the size, the boat was perfectly stable, low cog, long wheelbase and coilover suspension. I find the loaded car trailer the most sensitive to loading. Usually it tows great, but on occasion it has given me quite the scare, almost like M&S described... RRB, really like your comments, but there is one point I'd like to go into a bit further. Tyre pressures, don't over-inflate the steering wheels, the noseweight of the trailer can actually reduce the front axle load. Pump the rear tyres up and those on the trailer. On a twin axle I put an extra 5psi in the rear axle of an awkward trailer, it makes it handle like a longer trailer. Always be guided by the owner's handlbook. Keep the nose of the trailer down, or level, NEVER up. Mostly you don't get the choose the hitch height of the trailer. I understand you'd want to have the rear axle of the trailer on higher pressure, to increase the wheelbase sort of speak (by shifting the pivot point of the trailer towards the rear axle). But doesn't a higher towball have the same effect? I always had a tendency to raise the towball, and with it the noseweight, if I felt a trailer was unstable. Maybe worth mentioning I tow with a P38a with EAS, so the noseweight doesn't effect the towball height. Greetz, Filip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 So, does this look like an appropriate combination? Spotted just now opposite my house and yes, it really is loaded up with camping gear. There's a 2CV that lives round the corner from me that has a tow bar Never seen it with anything hitched on though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 You should come to Malta to see some real leathal combinations, not to mention the hacked up trailers......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 You should come to Malta to see some real leathal combinations, not to mention the hacked up trailers......... and the state of the roads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brownlie Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 There's a 2CV that lives round the corner from me that has a tow bar Never seen it with anything hitched on though. seen a renault 5 in france towing a caravan!! :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 seen a renault 5 in france towing a caravan!! :unsure: There was a email video going around a few years ago of a R5 plus caravan with a smoking clutch, and going backwards downhill fast Ah yes, here it is... quite a big van in fact. Be patient through the first bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtail4x4 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I saw a robin towing a 16 foot van once, he was downhill going towards a roundabout, with no chance of stopping or going round it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treefrog Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I saw a TVR Tuscan towing a caravan on the A303, what a waste of a lovely sports car?! By the way, do caravans/trailers need MOT's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wack61 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 By the way, do caravans/trailers need MOT's? No but if VOSA stop you and find it's not roadworthy it'll cost a fortune to get recovered and fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Using the escort with a MAM of 1800kg and a trailer of MAM 1500kg, the trailer un-laiden is going to be less than the car weight, and the trailer loaded is going to be less than the weight of the car. Not so I'm afraid. The trailer MAM has to be below the kerbweight of the towcar, that's what makes it a minefield. The GTW has to be below 3,500kg too so the greater the payload of the car, the worse towcar it becomes, if that makes sense. BTW, large trailer is the DVLA clasification for B+E, no matter how big the trailer is physically. A training company near me uses a twin axle trailer only slighlty bigger than an Erde. I don't know why as it must be a swine to reverse with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 RRB, really like your comments, but there is one point I'd like to go into a bit further. I understand you'd want to have the rear axle of the trailer on higher pressure, to increase the wheelbase sort of speak (by shifting the pivot point of the trailer towards the rear axle). But doesn't a higher towball have the same effect? I always had a tendency to raise the towball, and with it the noseweight, if I felt a trailer was unstable. Maybe worth mentioning I tow with a P38a with EAS, so the noseweight doesn't effect the towball height. Greetz, Filip Sorry I seem to have confused the issue a bit. Irrespective of how many axles a trailer has it should be towed level or nose down, although that may suggest that more weight gets thrown onto the front trailer axle and this isn't good. For twin axles it's almost certainly best to have the trailer level. Having re-read your thread though it sounds like you lift the nose in order to cure other problems. I would address the noseweight by re-loading if I could (and I have done so in the past) because another issue you may then experience is how low the back of the trailer becomes. However, sometimes you have to compramise in order to get the 'best' outcome. The reason(s) a trailer should not be nose up are for stability. If the floor of a large (physically) trailer like a caravan is higher at the front it will cause positive pressure under the floor that tries to lift the trailer at speed, the lifting effect will try to tip the trailer and add to any snaking that begins because it will almost certainly be below the C of G for the trailer. Also if the coupling head is too high (higher than it was designed to be) the roll longitudinal roll axis becomes inclined backwards. If that sounds too technical then basically a trailer should be designed to roll around a horizontal axis as it corners etc. If this axis tips up then any rolling motion from say a pothole can translate into slightl sideways motion and that can start a snake. (n I might not have explained that too well, but it's late) The brake over-run mechanism doesn't work as well if the hitch it nose-up. Small amounts are insignificant but if the trailer was quite nose-up it would cause probelms. Nose down helps overcome friction in the coupling head without significanlty affecting the pressure applied to the brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Thanks for elaborating on the nose-down issue. To clarify, I don't feel I have problems towing (did once, but learned my lesson the hard way ). But as you say, sometimes you have to compromise. This weekend, we had the car trailer with a Discovery behind an RRC with a height adjustable towball. Off course, perfectly level sat just between 2 possible heights. We chose to go with the slightly nose-up set-up. To put things into perspective, the difference between high and low is about 4 cm, on a trailer with a wheelbase of about 4m, so only 0.3° of angle. I often find myself with the same dilemma when chosing between standard or highway setting on the EAS of my P38a, usually opting for standard as this corresponds closer to the trailer sitting perfectly level. Because the trailer has an open floor with perforated sides, the lift effect I think will be negliable, especially at such a small angle of attack. The same goes for any effects on the over-run brake, good maintenance/lubracition will be far more important. I do understand your explanation about sideway forces resulting from the rotational axis being tipped backwards. Perhaps this explains why the CT177 sits a bit nose down with a standard towbal height. Greetz, Filip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerboy_y2k Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The other reason to have the trailer nose down is under heavy braking it pushes the rear of the tow vehicle down, if its nose up under braking it tries to raise the rear of the tow car - possibly leading to instability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Good point farmerboy, I don't think trailer suffer weight transfer the same way cars do, so it's another consideration. Filip, I tried the different setting on my RRC EAS, witho ur first caravan, a single axle Leaky Lunar I found that on the motorway the outfit was more stable if I let the car go into low profile. After a short time that 'van went back to the dealer with a letter from our solicitor. We spent the refund on a twin axle Elddis, nice outfit but the rear fixed bed is designed ot have all the gear stored under it, a nightmare for safe loading. Anyway, with it loaded sensibly and the noseweight up to the limit of the coupling head (100kg) it tows ok, if I let the car sink though it is not so good. The car stiffens in low profile thabks to a set of Arnott GIII airbags but the 'van gets twitchy. So I'd agree to a point, with a twin axle it's best to throw the weight back if you have to, but where possible trust the trailer designer and think about how it's loaded. Now, here's a god point, what is the correct height for a towball? is there a standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgnas Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Now, here's a god point, what is the correct height for a towball? is there a standard? Yes, shin height Should be 14-16.5 inches. 4x4s (off road vehicles) exempt due to ground clearance issues. A dixon Bate towbar on a 90/110 comes in at the top of this range. The standard LR towbar does not conform. I thought there was a different height for commercial trailers (with ring hitches) which Landrovers do conform to, but I cannot find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brownlie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Not so I'm afraid. The trailer MAM has to be below the kerbweight of the towcar, that's what makes it a minefield. The GTW has to be below 3,500kg too so the greater the payload of the car, the worse towcar it becomes, if that makes sense. BTW, large trailer is the DVLA clasification for B+E, no matter how big the trailer is physically. A training company near me uses a twin axle trailer only slighlty bigger than an Erde. I don't know why as it must be a swine to reverse with. Escort is possibly a wrong example but for general trailers, caravans etc B+E does not always apply. I sat the B+E and the trailer was a tow-a-van twin axle behind a transit. I then sat my cat C LGV and my employer wanted me to tow a mini excavator behind a 10ton truck, again this was a problem as I was only allowed to tow 750kg!! So they sent me for C+E (artic) and now I can tow a trailer behind most things!! I have sat a theory test for Motorbike, Car, Truck and also a practical test for motorbike, car, car towing, LGV, HGV !!! Its a bit of a joke.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Its a bit of a joke.! I hear that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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