elbekko Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 How sure are you about the crank sensor being in the right spot and reading consistently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 The plugs were wet when we took them out yesterday. Also found a couple of small leaks on the fuel rail today which wouldnt be there if we were sucking air out and fuel in. There is also the mist you can see from under the car at the end of the video... There is spark. Tested with a spare spark plug and on 2 different leads leading to different coil packs. Laptop is showing up to ~400rpm when cranking over in the video. We tried the wires the other way around as well but got 0rpm. It appears to want to start but just doesnt quite get there! Thanks Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Most definitely sounds like an ignition problem, sounds like its too retarded IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 It is retarded! But why doesn't it run?!? :-P however in all seriousness I'll post up some pics tomorrow. Ta Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Give it a sniff of easy start, if it fires half decently on it then it's fuel issues, if no different then the ignition is well out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Do you have a timing gun to check with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Unfortunately any ideas are gonna have to wait a couple of weeks as I am not home till then! But they are still welcome I did suggest spraying something highly flammable down the intake but my dad never seems to keen on ideas like that.... No timing gun but ill be sure to pick one up before I go back! Cheers Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Are you sure you have the vac hose connected to Megasquirt from the inlet? The map should alter as you crank the engine not stay fixed at 100. Not that I forgot that the first time I tried to start on Ms or anything... That said I would've thought with fuel and spark it would still cough and splutter if not run? Have you checked the trigger wheel or whatever you have on this engine is correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Well the hose is connected to a takeoff on the back of the manifold. So I was fairly sure it was.... Unless it happens to go into a different passage within the casting of the plenum chamber. I'll blow in the tube next time to see if it changes. Are there any callibration values for the standard map sensor? Bowie would know more about the trigger wheel than myself... I'm trusting that's its the correct five teeth out when at TDC? Cheers Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I don't know about calibration, the component is on the board and I've not adjusted mine from how it was delivered, ms1 though. Try sucking on the hose, it should read vacuum. As the cylinders suck air in the restriction caused by the butterfly should create a vacuum depending on the rpm and how open the butterfly etc is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Right here are a bunch of the settings I have... Anyone see anything obvious? A couple of things I am wondering about.... Do you have to enter a firing order anywhere? I havent seen anything about it and do you have to tell the megasquirt about the 50 degrees the missing tooth should be from TDC? and here the AFR Ignition and Fuel Tables. We havent really played about with them since we havent been able to get the engine running yet! Thanks for your help Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Hmm I know nothing about MegaSquirt, but in your third picture something catches my eyes. First off why is all the tables about your trigger wheel grey? as if you cannot alter them? And second in one of them grey boxes you can actually set the 50 degrees your mentioning. Is it because you've chosen "MAP Sensor" that you cannot alter those values? Again I have no clue what I'm talking about, so chances are I'm very wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Do you have coil packs and edis 8 as is common with the rover engines on ms1 or have you something different? If so the firing order is set by the edis and how you've wired the coil packs and plugs. Assuming you have the above setup the Ms has no input on the firing order it just gets an rpm based signal from the edis and gives a signal back to the edis to alter the amount of advance. If the edis doesn't get that signal it stays at 10 degrees. It uses the rpm based signal from the edis and the map to determine fuel and advance based on the two tables. Also there might be a sync light on the bottom of your screen, this is because on cranking it has to do a couple of rotations to find the missing tooth then the sync light should go green. If you have something different then ignore the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Yep its all edis and coil packs so in that respect should be the same as ms1... So how could the timing be so far out that it won't even start? We did try varying the timing in ms between -10 to 10 degrees but it didn't seem to make much difference. Soren you can't change those settings because edis is selected. If you choose trigger wheel then you can. I have tried using the trigger wheel option but then it won't seem to continue due to other conflicting settings! cheers Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Wrong cylinder used to set tdc when putting trigger wheel on. Trigger wheel 5 teeth to wrong side of tdc. Wiring wrong from edis to coil packs. Wiring wrong from coil packs to plugs. Fault in engines timing between crank and cam. Valve problems. Edis or coil packs faulty... Can't think of anything else right now... Did your edis loom have the little plug you can pull out to set the timing at a fixed 10 degrees? If so I guess you could pull it then try a timing light although I'm not sure how well it will show on just cranking? Are you getting a tps reading? Are the fuel injectors in 2 banks like ms1 or is it more sophisticated? You should have a start settings page and a warm up page which should be what it uses to get it going.i would read up all the settings on the mega manual to check they look about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Honestly, I think it's of little use trying to troubleshoot more before you've checked the basics of ignition timing again. I know you're not with the car now, but if you spend the next few weeks thinking the cam timing is off, you'll probably tear down the engine before checking the trigger wheel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 This is the trigger wheel on my engine.I believe it looks correct. I have noticed that the VR sensor is pressed up hard against 1 side of the hole it sits in however so I will move this. with the key way in that position the engine should be at top dead centre. Both my dad and I have checked the wiring from coil packs to plugs and my dad has checked the wiring from edis to coil packs. Boothy had the engine running well before he sold it to me so I dont believe the timing belt will be out at all. we tried running the engine with the standard 10 degrees but its behaviour remained pretty consistent. Not sure how good a reading we will get with a timing light on slow cranking but we will try it. TPS is reading and has been callibrated. We are not sure the Idle air control valve is working correctly so need to check that. The fuel injectors should be firing in 2 banks like ms1. At some point in the future I would like to try individual fires but just want to get it working at the moment! I will post any start settings page and warm up page etc when I get home tonight. Not planning on tearing the engine apart yet elbekko! As I said it has previously been running but not by me so I believe its a megasquirt software problem, hardware fault or wiring fault.... Thanks Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Is that picture at TDC? Is it a reverse rotation engine? if not, I think you've got the gap on the wrong side of the sensor... compare to here: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS_system.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Is the crank sensor the lexus one? If so is it compatible with edis/Ms? You mentioned back along that it showed 190 rpm cranking or something skmklar, is that plausible? If so, you've got the cranking rpm set at 500rpm which presumably should be set to 150 or so if it does crank at ~200rpm? I've not got Ms myself though so this is a stab in the dark Edit* just looked through the other pics and it does look like a Vauxhall type sensor so ignore that comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 The engine there I believe is at TDC. If you look here they position the engine at TDC before changing and the key way looks to be in the same place. It is is not reverse rotation and that link you have is viewed from behind the trigger wheel as though you are the engine so also shows a standard rotation engine. I had to think about it a couple of times but I am sure the space is in the correct position. The VR sensor is compatible with MS. It is cranking at 190rpm but the cranking rpm setting in MS says it should be about 300rpm above the actual cranking speed of the engine. Dont know why they bother doing it that way rather than just having it add 300 behind the scenes.... Thanks for the ideas Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Oh, right, my bad. So yeah, it does look right then. Very strange, because it really, really sounds like timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Trigger wheel and VR sensor has been used (and I presume not moved as it is keyed to the crank), and run the engine on MS1v3s'n'EDIS setup, should be perfectly OK, I would disregard any thoughts about this being wrong. I think the sensor was deliberately off-centre in the hole, as a form of ignition timing trim, by all means try it, but it won't affect the starting. Cranking RPM setting is correct, as anything under this value MS will assume the engine is trying to start, and use startup settings, and above it, it will be in running state. Normally this is set to ~300, but I guess 5 will be OK A log file or two of the start attempt might be useful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 How much of the engine have you stripped after it was last running? If you haven't touched the trigger wheel or its sensor, it can't be related to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Nada! So no should not be related. We tried a few cranking speed values but did get any difference. Log files in a week and a half... Ta Jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm guessing you've got brand new fuel in it as you've done so much work to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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