Prospective Stage 1 V8 buyer.. needs help

[Josh NZ]

Hey all.

I test drove an ex NZ army stage 1 V8 wagon tonight and im seeking advice on a few things.

Vehicle is in good nick overall, no rust other than the drivers side door top which is very rotten, body is nice and straight. Interior is alright but the dash is a mess and hanging/badly attached. Gearbox, clutch are good. Brakes are horribly imbalanced and the pedal is way too firm and locks up drivers side tyres when pressed lightly.

Engine is another matter!

3.5V8 twin carb engine, 24V electrics etc all stock. Hasnt been laid up for too long, a few months between drives so im told. Takes HEAPS of cranking to start and using choke liberally it will eventually turn over. Idle is lumpy to the point of stalling, very hesitant to respond to throttle and missing, generally not running nicely but blows no smoke.....

Its VERY slow on the road too. My Series 2a with 2.25p would easily beat it anyday so surely that can't be right?

Comfortable ride though, and very original army trim/colours.

What are your thoughts, is it gonna be another expensive landy adventure or are these just sypmtoms of poor servicing?

I really like it though! Im still waiting for series 2a to sell

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/land-rover/auction-538206959.htm

[Snagger]

Oh dear. The trim is simple enough, with a bit of time and effort, but the engine sounds like a dog. It could be as simple as maladjustment of the timing or carb, or some old, dirty fuel, but V8s are prone to cam wear and tappet problems and head warping. 3.5s at least don't seem to suffer liner problems or porous blocks. But its performance is a worry - it should fly by comparison to a 2.25.

Be wary of the front axle. too - it has special CV joints and swivel housings, neither of which are available anymore. Those that do crop up are very dear - many people now have Discovery CVs machined to fit. Brakes shouldn't be too much of an effort - the lines are mostly the same as other 109s, with the same hoses. The cylinders may be a bit larger to match the wider shoes and square edged drums, but I think that's all still available.

[FridgeFreezer]

You'll probably find the 3.5 is out of tune & tired, they hide wear well and there's enough clockwork to be out of wack. It may also have a knackered fuel pump, some were mechanical, others had a Facet electric pump on the chassis rail. Additionally, all the V8's fitted to "proper" land rovers were restricted to ~99bhp with restrictors in the intake, which is ~35bhp down on the same lump in a RR Classic & ~65bhp down on the 3.5 EFI. You may well find it's a low-compression motor too.

On the plus side, the V8 is easy enough to freshen up & de-restrict it, but also you can drop a newer / less knackered 3.5 or 3.9 or 4.x in there depending on local availability of crusty Range Rovers & Discoveries.

[disco2hse]

Mostly usual problems with a landie that has been left to sit for too long.

The door tops are easy to replace (two bolts, each side). You can get new ones from www.landroverspares.co.nz or www.landroverparts.co.nz.

Brakes are a pain to get right in these but once done, they are actually pretty good. I would recommend a complete brake overhaul, from top to bottom. Check the booster right down to replacing the brake shoes and cylinders.

These use Facet fuel pumps, one each for the front and rear tanks.

80000 km may be 80, 180, 280, etc. Check the actual mileage on carjam.co.nz.

The motor is another matter. They are simple engines and essentially, get the fuel supply and spark right and most will be quite forgiving. Running rough could be either of those or mechanical. There are a couple of little wrinkles in these models. You don't say when/if it blows smoke or what colour.

1. They use a low compression cam. The shaft wears quickly and mostly likely needs to be replaced. Lifters are the same, they wear quickly ince the cam gets worn and will need to be replaced. Not a big job. You can buy a new race cam from summitracing.com at a good price. Look for Buick 215 components.

2. They use Mallory Unilite Distributors. Don't be confused by the ARMY589 code on it, it uses Unilite components.

3. The voltage adjuster unit that incorporates ignitor and rev limiter is carp. Dump it and replace with something else. I used a Pertronix Flamethrower unit. Better spark and more reliable.

4. The strommies are, well, strommies. They need to be properly balanced and tuned. If you don't know how, there are people in Chch who can do it. They probably need to have the rubber baffle replaced because they perish after about 6-12 months. The dash pots need to have some oil in them (about 1/3-ish full).

If the motor is poked, it is a simple replacement to drop a 3.9 straight in without certification. I did this and put the front end off the old motor onto the donor (water pump, etc.). I also put SUs on instead of the strommies. The engine is basically the same but with a little more capacity and a lot more power and performance.

Four grand is probably a little high. I would think 3500/3750.

[Josh NZ]

Fantastic replies everyone!

The truck blows no smoke at all which I though was strange. The miles are genuine as the army kept the vehicles in top nick when they used them and this particular one wasn't used as much I've been told. I was also under the impression that the price was a little high, I was thinking 3,500 at the most.

I'm leaning towards poor servicing/neglect in terms of the motor. EFI will be in the pipeline somewhere in the future as its preferable for me and perhaps a cheeky megasquirt kit slipped in there

I need my series to sell so i can have the funds to look into the whole business. I enjoyed driving it though, the truck handles pretty well and if the motor was just a tidy up job I would be pretty happy to have a go!

[Phil Hancock]

If the diaphragms are split in the carbs it will be dire to drive, i drove a 6 with a split diaphragm about 2 miles to the workshop and i could have walked quicker.

[Josh NZ]

That's a possibility! When I drove it, it was slow and reluctant to rev but once on revs it would plod along. No big sudden thrust like I was expecting haha but I got it up to about 25mph at a guess but it was not quick getting there!

[tacr2man]

You can pretty well bet that therubber diaphragms in the strombergs are perished, so throttles wont be opening , Your foot is just moving the butterfly !!

When running well stage 1 V8 without restrictors is quite quick . The trans mission /drivetrain is prettywell bomb proof . Brakes when working properly are equal to a good disc setup . I had a new stage 1 V8 109 SW , they were the first landrover that had adequate power and performance, the 6cyl was as close as they came beforehand , but used more fuel than the V8 if worked. When you have fitted new diaphragms look at the rest of tuning . The dashpots damper use 3 in 1 oil or ATF works as well , a swap to SU will give a bit better economy and performance HTSH

[FridgeFreezer]

A V8 Series 109 also has the advantage of being the perfect land rover in every respect, the S3 109 was the pinnacle of LR's efforts and they just went downhill from there.

* I may be mildly biased.

[Snagger]

* I may be mildly biased.

You think?

[Tanuki]

Make sure the advance/retard mechanisms in the distributor are working: both the vacuum-diaphragm and the centrifugal-weights thing.

The diaphragms can perish (meaning your ignition won't advance properly under light-throttle/cruise so your fuel-consumption will be horrendous and the engine will run hot) and the centrifugal-bit can get immobilised by dried-out grease (meaning it will either not advance with increasing revs causing the engine to have all the mid/high-revs responsiveness of a sloth on valium), or it will advance then stick-advanced causing starting problems and spitting-back through the intake.

Leaky/split vacuum-pipes between the distributor and the carbs are another thing to loom for: the distributor won't function properly without a good vacuum-signal, and leaky pipes will bleed air into the intake system causing weak mixtures/stumbling at small throttle openings.

Any properly set-up and healthy V8 should pull strongly from 3000 to 5500+ RPM. Don't expect Diesel-like stump-puller low end torque; these engines thrive on small throttle-openings and lots of revs to keep them spinning freely. Change down early and enjoy the soundtrack...

[Josh NZ]

Hmm, interesting stuff. You're certainly naming everything it did haha! Still waiting for my series to sell but hopefully it will soon!

[RobotMan]

Don't be afraid of the axle internals. Early OneTen CV's fit straight in but the stub shaft is slightly shorter. This can easily be fixed by thining down a drive flange a couple of mm. I have done this on my Stage One axle and it is spot on.

Oh and after market uprated front shafts can be got cheaper than old stock, gold dust originals.

[Josh NZ]

Ok, so I have a prospective buyer for my series 2a lined up. I have since done some research into the stage 1 model and its quirks (thank you glen coyne!!) and I'm fairly certain I have a diagnosis on the running issues I noted earlier. Basically from what I can tell, the poor running/misfiring is down to camshaft wear and or a blown head gasket. Both are relatively cheap to replace although the 3.5 is totally unfamiliar to me so it's a little daunting!

I'm really wanting to buy the vehicle though, it's in such sound condition body/chassis wise and its got history! Plus I want to set it up for over landing and as a part time camper too..

So I will hopefully be back soonish with some good news and I'll be starting a build diary.

Watch this space!

[CwazyWabbit]

I'm looking forward to the new build thread

[Oakmaster]

Once you get the motor sorted it should fly, I fitted a manifod re-machined to fit a Webber 38 DGAS, with big filter, electric fans. RRC ignition, and a RRC Fairy overdrive it was good for 100 MPH (on the motorway - very scary elsewhere) - the front propshafs are VERY expensive too, I was quoted £875 + tax for a genuine one 15 yrs ago (didnt buy it though)

[deep]

I joined this site just so I could reply to this thread!

I live in New Zealand, not far from Palmerston North and run a Stage One V8 (not an ex-army one, a private one). It's very sound but I got it with no motor and stuck in what I always thought was a cheap ($200!!) Range Rover motor off Trade Me. The motor has been fine for years and still has plenty of grunt but it's ageing, so I just bought a 3.9 to put in. Scratching my head today, I realised it's a good bit different to what's in there, so I am reassured to know I can change over the front end and use the 3.9 block. Though I have the full injection kit, I like the simple Strombergs so will just change the manifold and go on as before.

Anyway, back to the original post - I have had the carb diaphragms perish in a Range Rover and the symptoms are exactly what you describe. Worn cams, head gaskets, etc, will make the motor less powerful but they can still be quite torquey and don't show the symptoms you describe. Those rubbers are so cheap and easy to fit, you could actually buy a pair and fit them and have another test drive! Well worth it.

Don

[Josh NZ]

Ok, thought I'd drop in a wee update.

Series is now sold, but missed out on the previously mentioned stage 1. Found another which has had $1400 odd spent on it for the fella to be told that its cam is worn out.

I'm currently doing some part research from glencoynes website and I've found the RPI engineering firm in the states. Am I better off going for an OEM style camshaft and tappets plus a beefier timing chain and gears? And would it be good practice to change the head gaskets as well just for piece of mind?

Bearing in mind the truck will be used as a summer camper and work wagon all year round.

[deep]

I guess it depends a lot on what you want to do with it. I've had an interesting five years running a tired V8 in my Stage One. Right until I pulled the motor out, it could manage the open road speed limit ok. It never felt powerful but, on the other hand, it never felt feeble. When I pulled it apart, I found the cam so worn it barely had lumps on it! The cam on my new 3.9 looks positively ferocious by comparison (I seriously expect about double the horsepower, not that I'd use it - give me a few days to finish the work and I'll let you know).

What I am saying is that, as long as the cam and followers are good (new standard is a good place to start), the motor will go plenty well enough for any normal use. There seem to be plenty of after-market camshaft options (one on Trade Me for $300 this week) but I wonder if they really bring any sort of useful improvement for a summer camper/work wagon? Plenty of experts hear so we will probably both learn a bit.

I have found that RPI site very informative but also a wee bit OTT - I mean an engine will run for a very long time with some wear. A new standard timing chain and sprockets, for example, may be good for ten years of use as a summer camper... You can spend a lot of money on components which have a lot of life in them!

Don

[Josh NZ]

I agree with you on the OTT bit!

I ended up not running with the do-er upper one as he was asking far too much for a worn out vehicle.

It would seem (after yesterday's hunt around) that am now the owner of another, different stage 1. It's a truck cab, in desert sand. Good running motor, no rust and what seems to be a fully trimmed interior (door cards match seats plus what looks like a roof lining). I'll try and put a link in...

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/land-rover/109/auction-587566807.htm

There we go! Very excited, need to find a long hard top now

[Josh NZ]

Well, it would seem that the prospective buyer has become the actual owner of a stage 1 v8.

Truck arrived at the transport depot so went and picked it up yesterday.

I'm absolutely chuffed with it, I'm starting a build thread ASAP and will be regularly asking amateur questions (what's changed!)

[deep]

Very nice! I was intrigued to see how they'd sorted the snorkel but then noticed it's got no heater, which makes it easy. Good rubber, too - they're getting hard to find now. I've seen a hard top on Trade Me in the last week, should still be there.

Oh yes, there must be value in that number plate...

Don

[deep]

By the way, I finally got mine running last night with the 3.9 transplant. It turned out to be mostly very straightforward, apart from some issues with the old timing cover, which is naff (the 3.9 one won't fit because it sits the lovely viscous fan too low). That moment of relief when you start your second hand motor for the first time and, phew, it turns out to be as sweet as you hoped! I'll have to start a little thread of my own when finished.

Don

[Josh NZ]

The number plate was a total score! As was the chequer plate dog-box, rollbar and other wee bits and bobs.

I'm not totally sure how they've sorted the snorkel myself but the heater is still present, correct and working.

Its got a few weekends of work to do so that will keep me busy just to keep tidying it up.

Your setup sounds impressive. I haven't owned a V8 before so im unsure if is a good runner or tired. It sounds freakin awesome when the revs are up. If it put my foot to the floor it hesitates a little (like its missing or stuttering) then gets up and goes. It absolutely flies compared to my old 2.25p!

[deep]

That slight hesitation is most likely because the dashpots in the carbs need oil (the little black caps right on top of the carbs). They dampen the movement of the diaphragm when you suddenly open the throttle, providing the same effect as an accelerator pump, apparently. People say to use a fairly light oil in there. Some carbs require filling often, some rarely, so keep an eye on them. Don't fill right to the top or it will all come out when you put the pistons back in (they're attached to the caps). A little squirty oil can does the job.

Nothing really impressive about my vehicle, other than the fact it's spent most of its life in a shed and so is unusually sound and rust free. It's been budget all the way - bought without motor or box for $500 off a mate, then a cheap $200 Range Rover motor/box off Trade Me (actually kept the original box, passed on the RR box but used the RR transfer gears, sounds complicated but it worked). Somehow it took another $800 to finish (starter, radiator, battery, belt, hoses etc. etc.. Later I put on some BFG Mud Terrains, 255/85, the biggest that fit without tinkering with the chassis/body, and an ARB bullbar I swapped for the original junk bullbar. Until the recent motor transplant, that's been about it. Now I am all inspired so might find some paint and polish and sort out all the many little details that have nagged at me for five years.

Anyone good at maths will have worked out that it is quite high-geared, so that 3.9 is especially welcome but you really don't want to drive these things too fast unless your brakes woke up feeling unusually efficient that day.

Very much looking forward to hearing how your project progresses.

Don