Freewheel hubs

[Gareth Dickens]

Hi All,

Got my front Salisbury axle back yesterday and it now has defender flanges on it. I will be using early defender swivels with early defender CV's (23/24 spline) and custom side shafts.

Since I still have a part time 4x4 (toyota transmission) I want to refit Free wheel hubs on it. There are 3 options for me (what I've read so far)

1) Run solid drive flanges.

2) Try to modify my Selectro/Dualmatic (Series 3) fwh's to fit the Defender hubs.

3) Apparently AVM 446 fwh's are the original part to use. (Used on 110's with LT230 and part time 4x4)

I need some info please.

Is the main body of the Selectro/Dualmatic fwh weldable? I'm thinking of locating with one bolt and welding up the rest and redrilling to a 5 bolt pattern.

Does anyone know where I can get AVM 446's at a reasonable price?

I've got family in the UK at the moment so shipping to SA should not be an issue.

[western]

a quick internet search found this AVM 446 kit on ebay, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AVM-Manual-Free-Wheel-Hubs-Pair-446-CONV-KIT-LAND-ROVER-/160952188050

or try here http://www.avm.com.br/products4.htm

[Gareth Dickens]

Thanks Western,

I saw those but they're not reasonably priced. I was hoping someone on the forum had some for less than 100 pounds. I'll try to contact AVM directly to see what they can do.

[Snagger]

I think you're wasting your time. I had FWH on my 109 with a 12J engine, which gives meagre performance that would show any benefits from something like the FWH claims, and I saw nothing. No increase in speed or fuel economy, and I think that any increase in acceleration was placebo rather than actual; if it did accelerate better, it was so marginal as to be worthless. Some claim that FWH reduce steering loads, but I didn't notice that either. All I noticed was the inconvenience of having to lock the hubs each time I needed 4wd, typically with the hubs covered in muck and grime and quite slippery, and an increase in swivel pin and prop slip joint wear. When one of them split its O-ring, the decision to bin them made itself.

My view is that they're ugly, a nuisance, they protrude too much (impact risk off road), they are failure prone, cause premature wear on other components and have just one tangible benefit - the ability to disengage the whole forward drive system in the event of a front diff or shaft failure, allowing you to get home before making repairs.

[tacr2man]

I did notice quite an improvement on a 2.25 diesel in wintertime esp acceleration ( probably an oxymoron) . But they will not handle high torque loads well, eg if using front wheel drive only , due to rear halfshaft failure . They start to jump , so had to use the rear drive members on the front to get home .

They will also as mentioned lead to accelerated spline wear on the prop over time. HTSH

[tugboat]

And if you do break a rear halfshaft, and if you're on a hill, and if the FWHs are disengaged, and if you've no one with you (all of these events can easily come together).... then .... you've no handbrake and no way of getting out to chock a wheel or engage the front hubs.

[Gareth Dickens]

I've heard most of the arguments for and against. For the first while I'll be using solid drive flanges up front. We do tend to cover massive distances in SA compared to the UK. I can easily cover 2000 miles in a round trip visit to my family. I'm not too concerned with acceleration improvement as I'm running a Ford 302 V8 (5 liter) and as such cannot really justify fwh's for improved fuel consumption. I am mostly aiming for reduced driveline vibration and wear.

Is the extra cost justified?

I do like the idea of not having to get out and lock up the wheels in mud or snow in Lesotho.

I do not have handbrake issues as I'm fitting Audi rear calipers purely for a handbrake on the rear wheels.

[Retroanaconda]

In your situation I would just stick with solid flanges.

There won't be any driveline vibration if everything is set up correctly (propshafts etc.). I'd say any reduction in wear to the diff etc. that the FWHs offered would be negatively offset by the lack of lubrication to parts such as king pins etc.

Keeping solid flanges keeps everything moving and well lubed

[Snagger]

Yep, as long as your axle and prop are in good order, you will see no difference in vibration, and you will not notice any difference in steering feel on high speed roads either - those who report a difference say it's only at low speed that you notice it, manoeuvering in car parks and the like. Stick with the standard flanges - simple and reliable, and 4wd whenever you need it.

[samc88]

Is it possible to drive as normal with the freewheeling hubs constantly "engaged" or will that cause damage to anything?

I have some on mine and I can't see myself wanting to use 4 wheel drive for what I'll do with it unless in certain circumstances so the whole getting out of the car doesn't really bother me, plus I have some rather nice chrome wheeltrim which fits snugly round my Fairey hubs and as I have the trim I must fit it of course

cheers,

Sam

[Snagger]

Yes, you can do that, but it begs the question of why bother having FWH if you keep them engaged - they're a weak link that would best be removed if you don't use them.

[Gareth Dickens]

The one issue I do have with fwh's is that by the time you remember to engage them you're knee to waist deep in mud or water or on a (seemingly) near verticle incline or with the chassis lying on soft sea sand or it's pissing down with rain or snowing. I was just expecting some fuel and wear saving considering the distances we travel here.

Given the feedback I've received I will definately not go through the trouble of modifying my series fwh's to fit the defender hubs even though it seems doable. I'd still like a set of AVM 446 hubs if I can get them at the right price. I'll always carry spare drive flanges in any case.

Thanks for the input.

[samc88]

Aren't the defender FWHs a different spline to the series? I have an old pair of selectro FWHs of a defender knocking about and the splines are a different number to the series (e.g. they are something like 24 spline or something like that whereas series are less.

[Snagger]

Aren't the defender FWHs a different spline to the series? I have an old pair of selectro FWHs of a defender knocking about and the splines are a different number to the series (e.g. they are something like 24 spline or something like that whereas series are less.

Series axles from 1980 onwards have 24 splines at their outer ends, though they still have 10 splines at their diff ends.

[FridgeFreezer]

It's not just splines, it's the number of bolts on the flanges too.

I can see no reason to fit FWH's at all unless you are worried about saving a gnat's fart of fuel.

[Gareth Dickens]

One day when I'm big I'd actually like a gearbox with a center differential and then I can run permanent 4x4.

It's not just splines, it's the number of bolts on the flanges too.

..... and the round nut that retains the outer side shaft instead of a circlip as on defender cv's ...... but adapting a series fwh to fit a defender does look doable if you can weld 5 of the 6 of the fwh bolt holes up and then pick up 4 from the hub. Just not worth the hassle.

If I get a set of AVM446's for very cheap I'd love to have them though.

[FridgeFreezer]

One day when I'm big I'd actually like a gearbox with a center differential and then I can run permanent 4x4.

I don't see how that makes a difference to the FWH problem, surely the gearbox runs in 2WD on-road anyway?

[Simon Smith]

I took the freewheel hubs off my old S3 and binned them, I had the accellerated wear problem on the prop sliding joint, the swivel bushes wore out quickly without the splash feed, and they were always disengaged when I needed them engaged in a downpour. Waste of space in my opinion, and I noticed no difference in economy or performance either.

[Jon White]

Quite agree - took mine off and threw them away years ago. They knacker the rail co bushes cos nobody ever remembers to engage them regularly, and when they break no parts are available.

I'm with fridge on this one. Don't bother with the bluddy things.

Jon

[Gareth Dickens]

I don't see how that makes a difference to the FWH problem, surely the gearbox runs in 2WD on-road anyway?

In a 4x4 with center difflock (disengaged) it drives all 4 wheels and torque is split 50/50 (if all 4 wheels have traction). All the power only goes to one wheel if that one wheel starts to slip. A 4x4 with center diff open still drives the front and rear prop. They rotate at the same speed when going in a straight line, only once you turn do they operate at different speeds due to the front wheels traveling further than the rears.

I just realised that I don't quite know what you're trying to say since I'm quite sure you know how part time and full time 4x4's work......

My current gearbox is 2H - 4H - N - 4L (4H & 4L are locked) so yes, but if I fit a permanent 4x4 box (4H - 4H locked - 4L locked) I don't need fwh's.

Aren't you thinking of a Rangie box with the viscous unit?

[Gareth Dickens]

I bow to all of your knowledge and experience, and unless someone gives me a set of AVM446's for free will not bother to hunt them down.

Thanks for the constructive input and patience.

[bill van snorkle]

The question,"are the Selectro hubs weldable?" Early Selectro hub bodies were made of case hardened steel and are indeed weldable and convertible to Defender bolt pattern. With the exception of the pot metal locking/unlocking cam, which can be remade in steel, they are also the strongest hub I have ever used.I have tried all brands over the decades, and all the others are rubbish for hard work.

[Gareth Dickens]

I might take them to a welder to test somewhere far in the future. It does seem a lot of a faf though for no real gain judging the comments.

[Snagger]

I think most of us have the same view - unless you expect to blow the front diff or shafts and want to be able to drive home before fixing it, then they're useless. Even in that context, I think you'd get some residual rotation with the hubs disengaged and compound the damage. But you'd be introducing a weak link in the chain and would most likely blow the FWH, which would need replacing before going anywhere.