zim Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Morning, I've got a couple problems with my buggy, first off the drive train is too weak and secondly the wheelbase is too short we think. So a couple nights ago we decided to cut the back off and stretch the wheelbase. At the same time we're going to fit a GM corporate 14 bolt rear axle. We're not sure on what to do for hubs, got a few possible options - machine new hubs to 5 stud, remachine old hubs and weld on 5 stud flange or run 8 stud rear wheels with an adapter to suit LR discs. Will decided down the road. We're going to switch to a 4 link rear suspension. Going to shave the bottom of the diff for added ground clearnance (it has a 10.5" ring gear!). I've got som 4.11 gears from the states, so this will match my front LR axle ratio, which unfortunately will still be weak This is with the wheels mocked up at 107 : G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 What advantage do you see with four link over the existing A-frame and lower arms setup? What bushes or joints do you intend to use? With four link will you triangulate the links or run a panhard rod/watts linkage/sliding A-frame for lateral axle location? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 We're going to switch to a 4 link rear suspension. What advantage do you see with four link over the existing A-frame and lower arms setup? What bushes or joints do you intend to use?With four link will you triangulate the links or run a panhard rod/watts linkage/sliding A-frame for lateral axle location? All depends on how its done... It could be said that the standard "A frame" set-up is already a four link a single triangulated one, so by removing the a frame and replacing it with 2 links (like | \/ | ) will give no real advantage at all, maybe improve the travel over what can be achieved with a single joint. But you will still get the rear axle steer aspect as it moves through its arc of travel. If the lowers and the uppers are both triangulated (like / \/ \ ) then this will stop the axle steer but still give very good travel.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 We wish to go 4 link as described above because it is easier to fabricate links etc. We don't have any problems with the standard LR A frame. We also want to test it out before building the next truck. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyRoverlander Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 What advantage do you see with four link over the existing A-frame and lower arms setup? What bushes or joints do you intend to use?With four link will you triangulate the links or run a panhard rod/watts linkage/sliding A-frame for lateral axle location? Because you can build in way better link geometery, longer links, no or very limited rear steer etc. Triangulating the links would be the prefered way of axle location. I would swap in another front axle and 3-link it while you're at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 We don't wish to swap the front axle (ok, we do, but not worth the hassle) because we like the hydraulic steering setup. The money involved in changing that completely to another one would be quite expensive. I have a set of other steering axles currently on their way to build a totally new truck, so this is a temporary thing. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyRoverlander Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Ahaa, fair enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Twig Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 just out of interest 107" - why? not criticising, just interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 just out of interest 107" - why? not criticising, just interested. Series 1 lwb. So yeah, just a totally random number we picked ! Subject to change though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Wouldn't retaining the A frame plus longer trailing arms keep rear axle steer in check anyway? Is the rear diff going to be centred or offset? Centred rear diff and offset front will mean that you have 2 plows to push through the mud or guide over rocks. Centred diffs are more prone to high centreing on the crown of deeply rutted tracks, What have you got against using a standard or uprated 110 or FC101 Salisbury rear end ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Looking into 35 spline my rear 110 salsbury setup for my road 90 but as and when. Will need to get hold of an old shaft and see if I can fit different stub axles/hubs but thats way off the next project is building a strong 24 spline front for a series with def cv's Looks semi simple stripping parts for it today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Looking into 35 spline my rear 110 salsbury setup for my road 90 but as and when. Will need to get hold of an old shaft and see if I can fit different stub axles/hubs but thats way off the next project is building a strong 24 spline front for a series with def cv's Looks semi simple stripping parts for it today Don't Ashcrofts do oversize stub axles and bored out hubs to suit 35 spline shafts? I machined down, redrilled and shortened a pair of FC101 stub axles to fit bored out 110 hubs. Are they readily available in the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyRoverlander Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Wouldn't retaining the A frame plus longer trailing arms keep rear axle steer in check anyway? Lenghtening the a-frame and pushing the lower axle mounts outboard as far as possible will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Don't Ashcrofts do oversize stub axles and bored out hubs to suit 35 spline shafts? I machined down, redrilled and shortened a pair of FC101 stub axles to fit bored out 110 hubs. Are they readily available in the UK? I guess they must do as they have them on their force 9 axles I think they changed the hubs aswell to make room for a decent wheel bearing. I live 2 mins from Ashcroft ill be up there Monday I will ask cheers Bill never thought I of asking the tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I've read it all twice and I'm still not seeing it? I mean, Axel change has to be good, as a standard "something" is going to be better than a beefed up landy axel. (although you must be driving like a flippin' nutter ) . But 107"? I've got no plans to go up from 87" given LRS Lea Bridge (big rocks tight turns) and the upcoming LRS Broseley (tight turns and trees). If you are doing it for KOV it makes total sence, but it's a big change for one event? If I was doing it for KOV, which is a costly event, I'd make two sets of links to do 90 and 110, for the cake and eating it thing. I've got bolt-on rear cross member outriggers for msa and alrc. Seems fair to expand the theme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Intersting axle choice Gordon, are you hoping to gain stability by stretching the wb or are you trying to improve climbing ability? By only stretching the back it should climb better but decents will be similar. If you could pull the front axle out by a few inches(10?) it'd probably help in a lot of circumstances, a lot of the eastern european and russian cars only seem to stretch the front end out, to try to loose as much weight as possible off the front axle to stop it sinking so much. I think somewhere around 110" wb, sensible tyres and 4ws would be a dream ticket for most events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Bill - don't have anything against a salisbury rear axle. But it's back to the thing of we have an axle in the workshop that is good for 500bhp and 44's vs a salisbury which is not as strong. It'll be a centre diff, this is one of the reasons for moving it back. My engine is already about 6" back, so the rear prop is pretty short. The front axle could be moved forward because we don't have to worry about the steering links (only pipes), but we're happy where it is now and our approach angle. I don't have an ARB for this rear axle, have a detroit but it suits the thin gears - 4.11's are thick so no good to me. Hopefully an RD114 will be on it's way over from the states soon. Dan - the next buggy will be 4ws with a wheel base of probably about 110ish. At the moment climbs are horrible with the 88" wheelbase, we want more stability for this. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I don't think your climbing instability is purely a product of wheel base, Axle walk plays a huge role in the "feel" of a car once its near the limits of its climbing ability as does the suspension design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 I don't think your climbing instability is purely a product of wheel base,Axle walk plays a huge role in the "feel" of a car once its near the limits of its climbing ability as does the suspension design. Dan, you tend to find bomb holes etc are the length of a normal landrover. Drive up with an 88" and it seems awfully steep awfully quickly LOL G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 For about 9 years I had a mod 1 trialler, it started life as 80" on std rover suspension, then I stretched it the 86" and converted the back to run radius arms its climbing ability was transformed. I put this mostly down to the increased antisquat, followed by wheelbase. And thinking about it the lack of roll steer probably made it feel lots better as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted July 19, 2013 Author Share Posted July 19, 2013 We'll see Shaved the 14 bolt ring gear last night. Used some tips that i've never tried before which worked really well. (CBN). Tried some ceramic ones that i bought, but weren't as good as the CBN. Just did small 5 thou passes. Nice mirror finish G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 Brake disc adaptors in progress : Need to be finished off on the milling machine today. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 For about 9 years I had a mod 1 trialler, it started life as 80" on std rover suspension, then I stretched it the 86" and converted the back to run radius arms its climbing ability was transformed. I put this mostly down to the increased antisquat, followed by wheelbase. And thinking about it the lack of roll steer probably made it feel lots better as well. Agreed, that is exactly the reason why I run radius arms. Despite the reduction in articulation, the stability in hill climbs and side slopes makes up for it. You can't beat wheelbase for climbing ability though. And keep the weight low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 Update : I spent nearly 6 weeks away at sea, so not had much time to work on this. I'm not convinced about my original plan of running an 8 stud, so might redesign the hubs. That's for later. Been working on shaving the bottom off the diff housing. Marking the cut line : (FWIW - channel iron is not the right thing to use to clamp the axle to the bed. It flexes whilst tightening up, i need to find some big vee blocks) Cut the bulk off with a grinder and then clean up on the mill : A plate care of Carl Hurst (needs machining out the middle to allow for crownwheel - it is 15mm thick to start ) : Snug : Need to find some more filler rod this morning and then get it welded on. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De Ranged Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I've never play'd with any stuff other than Jap axles and the one set of rover axles on my toy but from the pirate threads people seem concerned with welding to the head casting, looking at the chip pattern it almost looks like cast iron this doesn't make sense as the axle tubes are welded on just curious Oh and I'd suggest a double clamp on each axle tube since you have a big enough bed, Iv'e found I get between 2-3 degrees of warp from the weld shrinkage, I now use a jig made of a piece of foot deep "I" beam and pre tension Like the trick of machining the edge off the ring gear, might have to copy that for the next one I do cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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