No more oil exchange.... synthetic oils live forever. How to do ?

[miketomcat]

Just to add something I learned recently this system would have trouble with modern car diesels as to name one. Mazda use a system that injects something can't remember what into the exhaust if an exact set of conditions exist but if they change at the point it wants to inject it gets dumped into the sump. Therefore Mazda have low, high and change on the dip stick this to me is proof that emissions are far higher up the list and this system actually knackers the oil on purpose. Not sure I made sence but I know what I mean.

Mike

[Team Idris]

"Does it reassemble all of the long-chain polymers that have been chopped up by mechanical forces?"

You'ld assume not, but hundreds of hours expirience on my oil cooler test rig suggests other wise? The original heating system was a big 3 phase motor + hydraulic pump and a valve. Closing the valve off caused more friction and heat. (If this sounds like a bad idea it is because it is. I replaced it with resistance heaters).

As the experiment ran the oil flow would drop slowly, involving me continually adjusting the secondary flow pump valve to compensate. But the next days start up would return the flow-valve to the same setting, even though the oils temperature was kept to 100 degrees centigrade during a run. Conclusion is that the oil chains broke down and reformed as the rig was run and stopped overnight.

Now that the heating is done by four 6kW incaloy heaters, the flow stays stable for an experimental run.

I am guessing that a long run in a car has the same effect? That the viscosity isn't the same 'hot' half an hour into a journey as it is at the end?

[Tanuki]

... interesting. Tks for sharing. Always great to learn something new.

How much does cost such a service ? - Is it an anually contract or you contract a specific number of analysis ? - So does make it sense to use an analysis service for trucks, too ? - Is such a service interesting too for trucker drivers ? - In Europe so fare I know the average run of a diesel engine on a truck per year is 150-180,000 kms. Mostly they are sold as used ones after 4-5 years these days. The market is overflooding with used trucks currently so for a buyer it would be interesting to have such analysis knowing that the engine and its oil was handled properly by the 1st owner, isnt ?!

I don't know specifically about road vehicles: but there are plenty of places that do oil analysis - someone like

http://www.theoillab.co.uk/

On the big Diesels I'm familiar with the oil-analysis stuff is dealt with by the facilities-management company as part of the contract; we have a pack of sample-bottles and reply-paid Jiffy-bags to mail in the samples. They email us when they want a sample and a few days later we get the results back, along with an updated maintenance schedule. It's in their interests to maintain the engines well since there are penalty-clauses for downtime in the contract, and they also want to maintain the resale-value of the engines at the end of the lease.

This sort of thing is SOP for all sorts of industrial gear.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Likewise in the marine industry. Our samples go off once per month.

As I stated earlier in the thread, we're averaging 12,000 hours before a significant amount of oil is changed on our main engines (2400kW 8 cylinder diesel)

[SenseMaker2013]

"Does it reassemble all of the long-chain polymers that have been chopped up by mechanical forces?"

You'ld assume not, but hundreds of hours expirience on my oil cooler test rig suggests other wise... Now that the heating is done by four 6kW incaloy heaters, the flow stays stable for an experimental run.

I am guessing that a long run in a car has the same effect? That the viscosity isn't the same 'hot' half an hour into a journey as it is at the end?

So what do we learn from this (I am not an oil expert, an analyst or engineer) for our topic "Bypass Oil Filter" ?

YOu mainly explain the effect of heat in correlation to the running time... So fare so good. I dont think, the bypass filter like this Frantz Oil Filter has a real influence onto the temperature curve itself. I have not found deep going details about temperature curves or comments beside answering lots of other questions.

http://www.cleanest-oil.com/en/FAQ.php

http://www.frantzoil.com/FAQ.html

By purpose these bypass systems are setup as "bypass function", that means: the bypass filter only picks up a little part of the oil while the main oil flow runs "old fashion" through the traditional filter which is delivered by the car/engine company as standard solution.

They just say this:

The normal rate of flow of 30 weight oil at a temperature of 180 degrees F (82°C) and 30p.s.i. is approximately 1 litre per minute. This flow rate will vary depending on oil viscosity, temperature and oil pressure. It also depends on the service condition of the oil pump and the ability of the pump to deliver oil flow and pressure when the oil viscosity decreases under normal operating conditions. Flow rates are higher for multi element systems because each element works in parallel. For example: For the same conditions as above, a 3 element system will filter 3 times the volume in the same time span.

So such a bypass filter might reduce the temperature of the heating oil only little bit, I dont think, it has huge influence cooling down the oil (more a kind of very short delay effect during the temperature increasing period before it becomes stable)... and therefore has no real influence onto the chemical structure of the oil - under the aspect of temperature. Isnt so ?

[SenseMaker2013]

Just to add something I learned recently this system would have trouble with modern car diesels as to name one. Mazda use a system that injects something can't remember what into the exhaust if an exact set of conditions exist but if they change at the point it wants to inject it gets dumped into the sump. Therefore Mazda have low, high and change on the dip stick this to me is proof that emissions are far higher up the list and this system actually knackers the oil on purpose. Not sure I made sence but I know what I mean.

Mike

Might be, that you talk about additives ? - You find different dicussions on the web, as people are scared about that such a bypass (Frantz Oil Filter) system might clean the oil from such additives. Its a very irrational fear which has its roots more in worries about that people create szenarios in their mind of exploding engines ruining their bank accounts *laugh*.

The answer clearly is: No, a Frantz Oil Filter is not stealing the additives.... you can read on your own here:

http://www.frantzoil.com/page/page/5651679.htm

Its not a miracle and no "poision kitchen" what is going with such filters like the Frantz Oil Filters .

THe princip yet I have not explained in details, but its worth to think a moment about it. Imagine you want brew a coffee, you take your coffee powder, put it with 1 or two spoons in a filter bag and then let flow over it hot water... yes, I talk about hand brewed coffee, the best tasting coffee in the world... :-). A very simply princips, and still it works without low cost expresso mashines .

The filter paper itself avoids, that you get all these particles of your coffee powder into the cup, very simple.... in princips you can say, thats what a Frantz Filter is doing... its not a spooky technology behind, its just filtering. Point.

So the simple question is: can a Frantz Filter be more effective by its method of filtering compared to other filters in the market ? - Now we come again to a very simple effect which is given by the Frantz Filter and which makes it different to the normal filters you already bought over times again and again.

Normally filter processes work like this (and take it seriously, so mainly it works in your car with the standard filters):

But that way, a Frantz Filter is not filtering... if it would do so, the effect of higher cleaning capacity wouldnt be given...

The trick is to use paper in a way structured, as you know it from toilette paper. Naturally nowadays its specific paper quality while at the beginning when it was invented by the explorer John Frantz (California) in the 50th of last century he used simple toilette paper.

(The old Frantz Oil Filter Panel Van still alive in Austrialia.)

So dont think about nowadays that you go in the supermarket and buy toilette paper to use it as filter. It would work, but it would not work very efficiently. Better you buy the specific paper from the companies who are producing such bypass filter like Frantz oil Filter which is set into the filter system like this:

In the pic you look from top to the bottom, and exactly thats the flow of the oil.... as the oil cannot flow in the middle, the hole is just to keep the paper role stable as soon its sucked with oil, it would become wacky and its used as the introduction channel to bring the oil from the motor into the right direction first to the top of the filter and then let flow it down through the tiny channels between the rolled paper sheets back into the motor (see last graphic in this post)...

The flow during the cleaning process is more along side each paper sheet than crossing horizontal the paper as you know it from regular screens. That kind of filtering the particles hang between the micro small space between the paper sheets inside the rough structure of a paper the makes the huge cleaning effect.

A paper surface looks like this under an electron microsope... its not plan as we know it from using a paper for copying, writing. Imagine how oil flows alongside this rough surface like water in a river bed and you understand the effect of filtering... in a river the water mainly keeps clean as the heavy particles hang on the ground...

(Pls take the river bed only a methaper to imagine the rough surface of the ground with smaller and bigger stones, sand in between etc. ... that way a river cleans itself. Naturally the physical princips of cleaning water in a river works because of gravity).

Toilette paper under an electron microscope...

As mentioned, its not a miracle behind. This following pic shows it more clearly how the oil flows alongside the paper sheets than just crossing the paper vertically through as most normal filters do...

[BogMonster]

What happens if you get a large can of spam, open it and stuff it into a Frantz Filter - would it filter that out?

[V8 Freak]

SenseMaker,

I think you just volunteered yourself on behalf of the forum members to fit this to your own vehicle and report back after 500,000 miles without an oil change...

No need for status updates...

[SenseMaker2013]

I don't know specifically about road vehicles: but there are plenty of places that do oil analysis - someone like

http://www.theoillab.co.uk/

OK... your infos made me curious.... I checked for Germany.

One of the leading oil test laboratories is "Oil Check". They even have their website in English. Their prizes for checking oil are moderate. Its even affordable for private car owners. An analysis of one probe starts at 41 Euros plus VAT and outside of Germany the shipping costs.

How an analysis is ordered is very simple as seen for engines with this PDF here. WIth their reports (e.g. for passanger diesel vehicles) they give warnings, too about the engine beside the individual oil report. Very interesting, indeed...

In Germany was done a test with such laboratories... one of the big car sales websites (Mobile.de) sent three oil probes of three different cars... and the laboratory exactly could tell how the cars had been used, how often they had been driven and what might be expected as coming damages.

So better investing 41 Euros in the future before singing the contract for buying a used car :-)

[SenseMaker2013]

SenseMaker,

I think you just volunteered yourself on behalf of the forum members to fit this to your own vehicle and report back after 500,000 miles without an oil change...

No need for status updates...

If you want wait 10-15 years.... okeys.... :-) I am in the process to invest in a vehicle.... so better learning before (from others, e.g. here in the forum) than knowing too late having made a mistake. - Or you pay me for this 500 Tmiles check as wished... then its not my own risk but I'd be willing to give you continuously status updates

-------

PS: To make it clear. I am not a sales man of Frantz Oil Filters :-) I just pick this up as I know little bit more about it than about other brands which produce such kind of bypass filters. So dont understand my thread as spamming, advertising etc. ..... Frantz just might be seen as a "representative candidate" for all the other brands existing in the market (eg AMSOIL, Pirtek, Triple etc. ...).

If anybody here has experiences with some of the other companies, always welcome. :-)

[simonr]

What happens if you get a large can of spam, open it and stuff it into a Frantz Filter - would it filter that out?

This sums it up! No, it's not my Mum, by the way

Si

[SenseMaker2013]

What happens if you get a large can of spam, open it and stuff it into a Frantz Filter - would it filter that out?

Never tested before a FrantzF for spam filtering... for that only some longer experiences with Avira Filter :-)

[SenseMaker2013]

... just checked what the prizes are for an Oil exchange (oil itself inclusive new Filter). I think, some of you might have heard of PitStop, its a Franchise company existing in Germany. It was founded in 1970 in Berlin and grew to a network of 330 filiates in 230 cities servicing annually more than 1 million clients...

The prize offer by Pitstop as you can calculate it on their website for a Landrover Defender TDI 2.5

is 143.14 Euros inclusive Vat

-------------------------------------------------------

Oil... 8.2 Litres (Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A1) at a prize of 12.95 Euros / Litre = 106.19 EUros net

Filter... 1x MANN at a prize of 12.95 Euros net

Oil and filter exchange: 48 minutes working time = 24.00 Euros net

Not everybody has the time to do oil exchange by him or herself... so expanding the intervals with a bypass filter makes sense in my understanding for reducing the costs and oil consumption.

[Sheffield]

It seems to me that the reason for changing the oil in a typical Land Rover engine, such as a 200/300TDI, is not the life of the oil, but the capacity of the filter. The filter filters the oil at what ever level of efficiency, until it is full of contanimates, and ceases to filter properly. As it appears the Franz system leaves the original filter in place and psses almost of the oil through it this process will continue. So eventually a stage will be reached where the original filter is clogged, and the only filtering being done is the 1% that passes through the Franz filter. This does not seem very good to me, and I think it would still be necessary to change the filter at the usual intervals. While I am at it it I might as well change the oil, and save the cost of the Franz system.

[SenseMaker2013]

It seems to me that the reason for changing the oil in a typical Land Rover engine, such as a 200/300TDI, is not the life of the oil, but the capacity of the filter. The filter filters the oil at what ever level of efficiency, until it is full of contanimates, and ceases to filter properly. As it appears the Franz system leaves the original filter in place and psses almost of the oil through it this process will continue. So eventually a stage will be reached where the original filter is clogged, and the only filtering being done is the 1% that passes through the Franz filter. This does not seem very good to me, and I think it would still be necessary to change the filter at the usual intervals. While I am at it it I might as well change the oil, and save the cost of the Franz system.

@Sheffield: As you describe it would give a picture, that the main job of filtering is done by the old filter. Its not that way... Effectively the filtering process is done by the Frantz Oil Filter (or any of the other products for bypass oil filter systems in the market).

To give a more clear picture by the amount of cleaning capacity. The oil filtered through the Frantz is depending on the temperature. So long the engine and oil is cold, its round about 1-2 cups / min roughly. By increasing temperature the speed of filtered volume climbs up, its round about 5-6 cups per minute then. If you calculate as an example a size of 5-quart crankcase (Rec.: many car engines have a size between 4.5 or 5.0 quarts) the time frame given is round about 6-7 minutes for 99% of the whole oil is going through the Frantz. So the cleaning procedure and cycles by Frantz are very effective and intensively.

So its not like that over a time of 3-4 hours the old filter is working mainly on the filtering job and maybe 1/2 hour overtakes the Frantz filter the job... The main filter by quality will be the Frantz Filter, generally. This filter system does not care about how dirty the original one is. Theoretically you could dismount the old filter, but as mentioned earlier, its just more the legal aspect behind to keep it screwed: So long you dont change any structure of the original mashine, no company of car producers can harm you and fail the warranty.

If you need a higher capacity of filtering by Frantz you can fix two parallel filters.... so the filtering/cleaning process is increasing as seen in following example.

In the pics you see a 1999 Peterbilt Truck (with a 3406E Caterpillar Engine (the yellow one just to get an idea about the huge size of the block));

As you can see clearly the installation was done as "Tandem". The oil volume which must be cleaned is round about 44 quarts. With this use of two Frantz Oil Filters it hasnt any (negative) effect onto the oil pressure, important for the truck driver to feel safely on the street as this engine runs3,500-4,000 miles - per week.

Such a truck runs easily 120,000 miles with the same oil by using a bypass system like the Frantz oil filter. Not theoretically, the driver of this Peterbuilt is doing it practially. In Europe the average distance driven per year by car is 14,000km (see ACEA statistics). This means the European car drivers could drive theoretically 8-9 years with one oil filling. What an immense reduction of oil consumption. In other words as you can see with the ACEA statistics. The average age of a car in Europe is of 8 years.... this means an owner just fills his car one time with oil, and only need to completes the reduced volume which is taken away by the filter during the exchange of the Toilette Paper filter, round about every 10,000 km. Thats it.

Interesting the economical aspect: average costs for every 10,000 miles regular oil change for this truck owner: $140.00-180.00 plus extra up to 2 working hours for the maintenance. The total cost reduction for this truck measured was round about $1,500.00 over a distance of 220,000 driven miles. The maintenance time reduced down to 15 minutes to change both filter elements and adding two quarts of new oil to the system as naturally the filter elements take little bit oil volume away.

You could calculate it further on and more radically: expand the tandem solution to a triple (with a 3rd filter) and the exchange rate of the filter elements extend to plus 30% range of miles as its still the same amount of oil to clean and the same amount of dirt.

The Peterbilt example is just an extreme form of use from perspective of a normal private car owner... I think, it shows how it can work and how it does its job in the reality. Why shouldnt normal car drivers not learn from road experts ? Truckers depend economically probably more heavily on their vehicle than a normal car owner... so they proof more critically what they tune in or expand in their setup. If it works for truckers, it works double safe for normal drivers.

Why not avoiding to damage the environment by a highly oil consumption ? The Frantz Oil Filter system can be overtaken in every new car, maybe needs little bit screwing with the relevant adapters. So in princips its a one time investment of only 220 Euros round about, and it let keep the car owners hands more clean by sure. So I would see it...

[Tanuki]

... just checked what the prizes are for an Oil exchange (oil itself inclusive new Filter). I think, some of you might have heard of PitStop, its a Franchise company existing in Germany. It was founded in 1970 in Berlin and grew to a network of 330 filiates in 230 cities servicing annually more than 1 million clients...

The prize offer by Pitstop as you can calculate it on their website for a Landrover Defender TDI 2.5

is 143.14 Euros inclusive Vat

-------------------------------------------------------

Oil... 8.2 Litres (Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A1) at a prize of 12.95 Euros / Litre = 106.19 EUros net

Filter... 1x MANN at a prize of 12.95 Euros net

Oil and filter exchange: 48 minutes working time = 24.00 Euros net

Not everybody has the time to do oil exchange by him or herself... so expanding the intervals with a bypass filter makes sense in my understanding for reducing the costs and oil consumption.

For a TDI that price is silly: it sounds more like the price for a TD5 [which has a conventional cartridge-filter *and* a centrifuge, and only needs to be changed every 12,000 miles/18,000Km/once a year whichever comes first]

And if this takes a skilled shop-technician more than ten minutes to carry out, he deserves to be taken out the back and given an intracranial .357 lead-injection for being a hopeless drain on the business's profit-line.

--Tanuki

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Sensemaker: I think you might have missed the meaning in my post on page #1

While sludge is a problem in oil that largely determines the lifetime of it, in an automotive environment you can expect dilution with fuel oil. This will be the limiting factor in automotive oil life and there is nothing a filter will be able to do about it.

In any case, just fitting an extra filter and saying that you can now use the same oil ad infinitum is very unwise. You should really do periodic oil sampling to determine the quality of the oil - I guess the cost of this is more than a simple oil change.

I maintain, high mileage, large plant etc - maybe. 95% of drivers on the road - No.

The big clue of when it starts to become viable is when extra filtration is already fitted by the manufacturer/system designer.

[SenseMaker2013]

...in an automotive environment you can expect dilution with fuel oil. This will be the limiting factor in automotive oil life and there is nothing a filter will be able to do about it.

AMSOIL, one of the producer of bypass filter systems is taking this aspect seriously since nearby 10 years... To understand what you want tell me/us here I have looked around. DSI in Belgium is describing a measurement method about dillution which makes it little bit more clear for "greenhorns" :-)

DSI is even offering even onboard installations for passanger vehicles.

[SenseMaker2013]

And if this takes a skilled shop-technician more than ten minutes to carry out, he deserves to be taken out the back and given an intracranial .357 lead-injection for being a hopeless drain on the business's profit-line.

--Tanuki

I have wondered, too about the time... so it is, as the official calculation popped up today on PS's website with 48.0 minutes each calculated with 50 Euro Cents.

If you'd calculate only ten minutes of a regular Volkswagen Workshop they have put in Germany on the bill in 2012 something between 90 to 120 Euros/hr inclusive vat. At the end its nearby the same prize you'd pay to PitStop. :-)

[Mo Murphy]

If it looks like spam and reads like spam ...

Mo

[BogMonster]

Theoretically you could dismount the old filter, but as mentioned earlier, its just more the legal aspect behind to keep it screwed: So long you dont change any structure of the original mashine, no company of car producers can harm you and fail the warranty.

Having been a dealer for fifteen years I can tell you with complete certainty that if you turned up on any forecourt with a hole in the side of your engine and your excuse for having never changed the oil or filter was that you'd fitted some glorified bogroll holder on the side of the engine that somebody on the internet told you was really good, you would not get much sympathy from the warranty dept!

I am not sure whether most dealerships would die laughing, try and sell you a fuel magnet or just tell you to get lost, but it would be one of the above!

Anything other than servicing a vehicle with genuine parts and specified lube oils at the manufacturers recommended schedule is sufficient grounds to invalidate the warranty if something major goes bang, and suggesting anything other than that is completely misleading.

[Dan110]

Fantastic answers from the forum regulars.

I mostly feel like i'm about to be offered the business opportunity of a lifetime; where do I send my bank details again?

[simonr]

Western Union only I'm afraid!

Si

[Dan110]

Western Union only I'm afraid!

Si

That's fine. I'm just so excited about it all - they say the margins will be huge!

[SenseMaker2013]

If it looks like spam and reads like spam ...

Mo

it not, read my former comment up.... hey guys, where is your passion for a good idea ?????? We are not here in a "dry seminar" about some boring stuff... missing passion for something is typically nowadays, pretending to be cool. I am not like such guys.... I like the idea of a bypass filter, thats it. And we all know how petrol industries is tricking us (just see the heavily increasing prizes at the petrol stations which says it all).

If you dont believe in things, you cannot stand for it. So I do.... generally I think, a bypass filter like Frantz or the other brands makes sense. All those guys here giving unrational critics are mainly driven by fears.

I have learnt a lot here in this thread by qualified comments like Tanuki, tacr2man and others have given, no doubt. (Tks guys). We have to come free of oil dependency, we have to be more environment friendly. But what I hear of most guys here: follow what the automotive industries is telling you. Keep your money in the pocket for such a bypass filter. What nonsense attitude as we know proofed how the car concerns and petrol companies manipulate consumer's mind.

Become more critically, but same become more passionate for what you believe in.... that has nothing to do with spamming. I stand for the idea of a Bypass filter... as I dont know enough about, I like to share a critical discussion about it to learn more in details for making the decision if I should install one. Thats all.

So keep going giving a qualified input, stop yealing around about spamming, bla, bla, bla.... its fare away from what the discussion needs about bypass filters. But dont expect from me, only because one says "B" here, that I follow to believe its "B" (a methapher).

Keep going learning from reality ! - And change this world into a better place. Exchanging oil every 10-15,000 km definitely is a total nonsense only because its written in the handbook. Thats boring middle class thinking and deplaced in a Forum for 4x4 as most of you guys bought used Landrovers (Hands up who could afford to buy a new Landrover !!!). - Every better solution than stupid oil exchange (with the attitude: make it dirty, after its dirty throw it quickly away) is welcome to be shared here by experienced people and the so called "experts" (by sure I am not as I only can learn from more experienced ones).

In that sense: Keep posting !

-----------

PS: By profession I am cultural journalist. I dont sell filters, I dont own filters, I even dont own a car privately as it was not necessary as I have my own recording studio in my home office as I am not one of these fools driving daily 3 hours to work and back home. - We are in midth the plannings of a setup for a media production vehicle.

Thats all behind why I go into this thematic (heavily). - And of course, the topic title was provocative !!! What else works better :-)

But if you want send me your money, no problem.... I take it ! Can give you a PayPal account. *laugh* We are working on a NGO (foundation) for offering cost free music therapy to people of social weak classes.... so every donation is very welcomed. Instead spending it for a bypass oil filter give it to me we can do something good to people by music :-)