LowRanger Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Here are some pics of my new superflex arms fitted to my 110 showing flex The arms allow me to max out a set of 14" shocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve200TDi Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Cool, we need more pictures! And where are you testing it, looks to be far too sunny for the UK! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 x2! We need more info! Stop teasing our weak souls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 More info please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I'm interested to see the top mounts for the dampers, they must be quite high to clear the damper bodies at full compression Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash.Witty Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I was looking at this setup yesterday. Made by Superior Engineering of Austrailia. http://www.superiorengineering.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=1723_3124_1727_2203&products_id=21543 http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/158446-superior-engineering-superflex-arms-rovers.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Hmm yeah well not overly keen on that idea, sure it gives more flex, but should also increase axle tramp, And seeing as it is different from side to side might result in some interesting torque effects on steering/roadholding. Not sure any of this is that noticeable though, sometimes you can get away with the weirdest mods on rover suspension design I will however say that this setup looks a damn bit safer than the hinged RA system seen elsewhere.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Given the scenery and the reg plate, I guess he's in Aussieland They look well made and better than other aftermarket ones at least. I'd quote Soren about the difference between one side and another, I'd like to know how the Defender handles on road with a pair fitted.Accordingly to the website, they're longer too? and where are you testing it, looks to be far too sunny for the UK! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 That chap, Buck, on Pirate ran standard radius arms with one bush moves closer to the other (on one side) - before he went to a 3 link. It's only anecdotal and second hand - but from memory he said it was a good set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Low Ranger is a regular on AULRO forums and there is quite a lengthy thread on these Superior brand RA's on the 'Technical Chatter' sub forum on that site. I tend to agree with Soren on this though.I don't see how anything that gives more flex with radius arms can adequately control axle tramp at the limits of traction. Standard RA's and bushings don't control it well enough under certain conditions IMO. The Superior arms use larger more compliant Nissan Patrol bushings as well. An interesting comparison would be these Superior arms to the One Link from Cambridge Engineering, was it? I believe the Superior Arms are, or will be approved for fitting to registered, road going vehicle in Australia, so would have met various State Authorities handling /safety requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Ok to answer a few of the questions,the mounts for the dampers are Gwyn Lewis,the dampers are 14" Amada Extreme,and the arms allow the dampers to be maxed out.And yes the arms are made here in Australia by Superior Engineering.I did a lot of consultation with Greg,the Engineer from Superior,in organising the arms for Land Rovers.These arms are not new to the Automotive world,just to Land Rovers!They have been available for Toyota Land Cruiser and Nissan Patrols for a few years now.So the engineering principles have been well proven as has the strength of the products.The arms weigh approx 15KG and have been used and abused in many competition vehicles over here,without failure.At the moment the arms are available for standard height vehicles and also caster corrected for vehicles with 2" lift.The arms fitted to my old truck are the prototypes and the first fitted to a Land Rover anywhere,they have since been sold to quite a few of the guys over here.As far as on road driving is concerned,the vehicle actually drives better than when I had the standard arms and raised suspension.Offroad,there is no comparison,the vehicle is infinately more stable especially in cross axle and climbing and descending large rock dropoffs.As far as torque effects when driving on the road is concerned,I have virtually zero torque steer,which is more than I can say for a friend of mines 2014 standard Puma. We were not aiming to try and compete with 3 Links or guys trying to re-invent the wheel,we were after something that would allow the average Land Rover to increase the available travel in the front end,whilst maintaining safety and driveability.Obviously improvements will be limited by the rest of the suspension ie mounts ,dampers etc.And in case anyone asks,apart from knowing the engineer,I have no affiliation with the company that is making them.I just gave my input on what I considered would work with Land Rovers and what I though Land Rover guys would be happy with.So I thought I would show you something else that is now available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Low Ranger is a regular on AULRO forums and there is quite a lengthy thread on these Superior brand RA's on the 'Technical Chatter' sub forum on that site. I tend to agree with Soren on this though.I don't see how anything that gives more flex with radius arms can adequately control axle tramp at the limits of traction. Standard RA's and bushings don't control it well enough under certain conditions IMO. The Superior arms use larger more compliant Nissan Patrol bushings as well. An interesting comparison would be these Superior arms to the One Link from Cambridge Engineering, was it? I believe the Superior Arms are, or will be approved for fitting to registered, road going vehicle in Australia, so would have met various State Authorities handling /safety requirements. Good to see that you still obviously read what is happening on AULRO Bill.Even if you don't grace us with your presence any more.I am only regular when there is a subject that comes up that interests me. As far as axle tramp is concerned,I tend to play fairly hard,and the local area is basically large sandstone rocks and ledges and whilst I don't have a lot of power from the 200Tdi,I do run large soft tyres and also run an Underdrive,and have noticed that the vehicle is much more driveable and stable in all situations that I have had it,than it was prior to the fitting of the arms,with no signs of axle tramp.That is not saying that if you put it behind something with 500BHP that it isn't going to happen.But that isn't what it was made for,it was made as a simple bolt in alternative to the standard arms that will markedly improve the offroad ability of Land Rover vehicles.Which having driven it,I can assure you it does.The arms even allow the original sway bars to be fitted if people so desire.This is a pre requisite to having the arms engineered in Australia.It still doesn't have anywhere near the travel of you truck Bill ,but it gets the job done and it Makes Nissans and Toyotas look silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Here is a short video showing the suspension working,don't worry about the noisy springs http://vimeo.com/89254196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Good to see that you still obviously read what is happening on AULRO Bill.Even if you don't grace us with your presence any more.I am only regular when there is a subject that comes up that interests me. As far as axle tramp is concerned,I tend to play fairly hard,and the local area is basically large sandstone rocks and ledges and whilst I don't have a lot of power from the 200Tdi,I do run large soft tyres and also run an Underdrive,and have noticed that the vehicle is much more driveable and stable in all situations that I have had it,than it was prior to the fitting of the arms,with no signs of axle tramp.That is not saying that if you put it behind something with 500BHP that it isn't going to happen.But that isn't what it was made for,it was made as a simple bolt in alternative to the standard arms that will markedly improve the offroad ability of Land Rover vehicles.Which having driven it,I can assure you it does.The arms even allow the original sway bars to be fitted if people so desire.This is a pre requisite to having the arms engineered in Australia.It still doesn't have anywhere near the travel of you truck Bill ,but it gets the job done and it Makes Nissans and Toyotas look silly. Thanks Wayne. Admins censured me at a very bad and intolerant time in my life, so I left the forum, nuff said. I caught your RA thread after Googling portal axles, which took me to Chooks thread, re the problems he was having.. It appears by the photos that you are getting almost as much front articulation as the drag link ball joint angularity will allow, and front/rear balance is just about spot on. If as you say, handling is better and there is little axle tramp/hop on rocky climbs or under heavy braking, then my original reservations are unfounded. How much angularity are you getting from your rear A frame ball joint , is it a standard one ? The degree of articulation on my truck, likely doesn't really improve traction any further than what you have achieved here. The extra articulation just compensates for it being a SWB in regards maintaining balance stability on extremely twisty terrain. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Ok to answer a few of the questions,the mounts for the dampers are Gwyn Lewis,the dampers are 14" Amada Extreme,and the arms allow the dampers to be maxed out.. So you are using 14" stroke dampers on a mount designed to use 11" stroke dampers? Does the damper not bottom out long before the axle touches the bump stop? I would have thought this would be an issue especially during articulation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I'm guessing it has 3" longer bump stops judging by the tyres and bodywork? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 What bumpstops and tyre size are you running, exactly?I have 1" extended bumpstops front (IIRC), and with a 3 link and short dampers to limit the available articulation, I found the tire (34" and 36") to hit the spring perch before worrying about bumpstops. Even going with external mounts (which I've been thinking to do for years) wouldn't solve the issue. I'm glad those arms work well and you're happy with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 What length dampers are you running Michele? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 So you are using 14" stroke dampers on a mount designed to use 11" stroke dampers? Does the damper not bottom out long before the axle touches the bump stop? I would have thought this would be an issue especially during articulation Designed for one brand of 11 inch dampener maybe. There are so many different length shocks in one travel size, that doing the reasearch can lead to finding a shock that will work. For example, the lengths on Bilstein 7100 and 9100 (both standard or short body, just compare same) both in say a 12 inch shock. Both are from Bilstein USA, both have the same travel yet the 7100 is much shorter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The gwyn Lewis mounts are supposed to use these dampers: 926560 - Pin mount at top / pin mount at bottom 27.07" extended, 15.94 collapsed, 2.36" body diameter The 14" travel damper must have an impressively short closed length to fit in that 16" gap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Thanks Wayne. Admins censured me at a very bad and intolerant time in my life, so I left the forum, nuff said. I caught your RA thread after Googling portal axles, which took me to Chooks thread, re the problems he was having.. It appears by the photos that you are getting almost as much front articulation as the drag link ball joint angularity will allow, and front/rear balance is just about spot on. If as you say, handling is better and there is little axle tramp/hop on rocky climbs or under heavy braking, then my original reservations are unfounded. How much angularity are you getting from your rear A frame ball joint , is it a standard one ? The degree of articulation on my truck, likely doesn't really improve traction any further than what you have achieved here. The extra articulation just compensates for it being a SWB in regards maintaining balance stability on extremely twisty terrain. Cheers. Hi Bill Yes I heard about the drama there after I enquired about not hearing from you for a while,I never followed the original thread. Yes you are correct about the angle of the drag link balljoint,I don't believe that I could go too much further with this same design.Not a lot of people pick up on this and are just interested in more more more.To get muck more travel will require a lot of fabrication and this project was all about,what we could get with what we have. As I have already mentioned,the truck gets a good solid workout every time I take it out,and excels in the mountainous rocky areas around Sydney.I had to do an Emergency stop last weekend as the lights at a red light camera changed as I was approaching,there was no sign of axle hop/tramping,although I was more concerned about getting the rag tyres to stay adhered to the bitumen,and the rear to stay behind the front.What I have found with the handling of the vehicle offroad,is that the vehicle now tends to stay very flat and allows the suspension to fully cycle before the body starts to change plane and gives a feeling of security in the vehicle.And unlike when you remove a bolt from a standard radius arm to give more travel but experience more body roll,particularly when dropping down large steps,these arms actually make the vehicle feel much more stable doing so.The vehicle is very balanced front to rear now,which is what I wanted,and everyone that I have been out with has commented on how balanced a stable it is.To say I am happy is an understatement.It is very easy to get the rear do do a lot more,but I have limited the rear to keep the balance.I have had conversations with Greg from Superior regarding longer rear arms and different rear arms,and while these discussions may lead to further changes in the future,and obviously help with the rear diff rotating when climbing,I am more than happy with it at the moment for what it is. Regards Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Hmm yeah well not overly keen on that idea, sure it gives more flex, but should also increase axle tramp, And seeing as it is different from side to side might result in some interesting torque effects on steering/roadholding. Not sure any of this is that noticeable though, sometimes you can get away with the weirdest mods on rover suspension design I will however say that this setup looks a damn bit safer than the hinged RA system seen elsewhere.. Soren As I have mentioned elsewhere,the basic principle has been done on Nissan and Toyota for a few years now.The design works so well that vehicles can now be engineered to be driven on the roads here in Australia,providing that there is a sway bar fitted.And our engineering standards for road vehicles is fairly strict.And involves swerve testing at speed as well as brake testing from speed as well as the usual engineering parameters for design and construction.And as far as construction is concerned,I weighed the drivers side arm,and the standard arm weighed just over 5Kg,the superflex arm weighs 15Kg,so although adding to unsprung mass,I am happy to put up with this for safety and durability. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Given the scenery and the reg plate, I guess he's in Aussieland They look well made and better than other aftermarket ones at least. I'd quote Soren about the difference between one side and another, I'd like to know how the Defender handles on road with a pair fitted. Accordingly to the website, they're longer too? Michele Although my vehicle is not a great test bed regarding handling ON road,as it is setup primarily as a play truck and is necessarily on the soft side and fitted with large crossply tyres.What I can tell you,is that since fitting the arms,the ON road manners of the vehicle have improved considerably,but this could also be enhanced by the different shock absorbers fitted as well.Although there was nothing wrong with the OME 60070L shocks that were fitted previously. Unfortunately the website is incorrect,the arms are basically the same length on a Land Rover. Regards Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRanger Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 So you are using 14" stroke dampers on a mount designed to use 11" stroke dampers? Does the damper not bottom out long before the axle touches the bump stop? I would have thought this would be an issue especially during articulation The bump stops have been adjusted accordingly,which still allows me to fully stuff the 35's into the wheel arch cavity,as can be seen in the pics. Regards Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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