Mega Squirt Sellers

[Cheesy]

Looks like the thread has gone downhill pretty quick with rubbish posts that add nothing to the topic.

However thanks to those who posted early as these provided the sort of information I was looking for - in particular Nige who posted information on competitors as well as his own organisation - I appreciate the input and later when I have my engine built I will be in contact direct.

One question though for Nige and Bobtail84 - Nige's website seems to indicate the Thor version is up and running but your discussion here seems there is a little more testing/building is required.

Can you clarify its current status.

Thanks

Garry

Is your engine a Thor engine or just a Thor manifold on some other iteration which already has a "kit" available? If the latter it sounds like the only hard bit to solve is the thermostat setup. Sensors could be swapped for common GM ones which are likely much cheaper than Rover ones and have default values in MS and I think the injectors and fuel rail can be swapped for the 3.9 ones which means the base VE tables will at least be in the ball park. It looks like there are quite a few MS Thor engines on various forums. Im kind of interested in trying one now as well, the bottom part of the manifold looks like it will flow better than the older setups and the separated runners look like a good idea as well.

All this is going to be much easier than trying to reprogram the 14CUX to use a Jag AFM and then the actual tuning as well...

[garrycol]

Is your engine a Thor engine or just a Thor manifold on some other iteration which already has a "kit" available?

The block is a top hatted 4.0 Thor engine that has a 4.6 crank, and conrods. I have also have a couple of sets of Thor manifolds, injectors, rails and loom. Teh only sensors I have at the moment are on induction system.

Garry

[garrycol]

On paper the MS3 ECU could runs a Thor injection system - why isn't Megasquirt V8 using this version. Anyone used it on the Thor??

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

MS1 will run it why does it need the massive compkexity and costs of ms3 ??????

[Cynic-al]

I think it was V8 developments that were doing plug in kits using the standard loom (maybe plus a few wires?), not sure which engine variants, their website seems to be offline. I'm sure they were using a trigger wheel on the back for some engines but it was a few years ago and my memory I a little wooly. They were also doing installations but buying them a plane ticket might not be too cost effective, although when I spoke to them they had been supporting trucks competing abroad.

They installed a couple of systems for KORC and the guy (Shaun I think) had a little play at improving my setup whilst he was there and did make it better than I had it (which might not be saying that much )

I bought the trigger wheel, vr bracket, plug leads, lambda and boss and a whole host of other bits from Megasquirt v8 and got great service plus they just fitted which is a real bug bear of mine if you pay good money for something then have to fettle it. Nige spent ages on the phone talking through tuning.

[garrycol]

MS1 will run it why does it need the massive compkexity and costs of ms3 ??????

But as you indicated earlier - the MS1 system is still under development where the MS3 is already there and is very cost effective from recognised US suppliers compared to UK suppliers - the whole topic seems awfully confusing and I am just trying to understand.

Thanks

[Cheesy]

It is a "kit" being developed, which by the looks of it has the MS with appropriate base maps etc and all the brackets, loom and little bits and pieces, probably instructions as well, as opposed to just the ECU be it MS1, MS2, MS2 extra, MS3..... Any of which will run any of the RV8 engines.

That is why I said earlier that soldering the ECU together was the easy bit, you can get them from lots of places, it was collecting and assembling all the other bits that took the time

All the ECU needs is

Crank speed and position ie 36-1 wheel and VR sensor

Manifold pressure, sensor is on the ECU board

Coolant temperature
Inlet air temperature

Throttle position sensor

Oxygen sensor

The ECU outputs

Injector bank A

Injector bank B

Spark output, either 1 channel high current or 1, 2. 3 or 4 channel logic level

Idle PWM

Any of the MS ECUs will do the above

[TheRecklessEngineer]

But as you indicated earlier - the MS1 system is still under development where the MS3 is already there and is very cost effective from recognised US suppliers compared to UK suppliers - the whole topic seems awfully confusing and I am just trying to understand.

Thanks

The only part of the MS1 kit that is under development is the bits that are specific to THOR. Buying an MS3 'kit' would amount to buying a bare bones kit - It'll still be down to you to source/make all of the brackets, sensors, ignition components etc etc. There is no full MS3 kit available specifically for THOR - only generic versions.

It's also pretty rare to be running MS3 on a rover V8 - so you'll have very little help in terms of base parameters to get your engine running.

It'd be like building a supercomputer from scratch, and compiling an operating system from source in order to browse Facebook. A much better option would be to buy a standard machine ready made. You might need to tweak it here and there, but it'll work out of the box. And if it doesn't you can call for help.

Buy me a plane ticket and I'll install it for you.

[garrycol]

Sorry getting mixed messages about the MS ECU - I understood from Nige that a modified MS1 is not yet fully developed. I am totally confused on what is on the market NOW that will run a Thor.

I appreciate the difference between the just an ECU and a full kit.

If someone with a fully functioning Thor on Megasquirt of any type would come along and explain what they have etc, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

[garrycol]

Any of which will run any of the RV8 engines.

The ECU outputs

Injector bank A

Injector bank B

Spark output, either 1 channel high current or 1, 2. 3 or 4 channel logic level

Idle PWM

Any of the MS ECUs will do the above

My understanding that will not work on a Thor due commonrail and sequential injection - no banks A and B. But I am still learning. Many people providing advice are providing advice related to Gems or 4CUX and not Thor - hence I am getting confused.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

You can rewire the Thor loom into banks A and B without issue.

Of course, if you build a loom from scratch, then you can do what you like.

I might be wrong - it's been a little while since I was actively involved in MS, but I don't think there is an off the shelf kit specifically for Thor engines. The closest available is what Nige is currently working on. It sounds like it's very nearly in production - I'd drop him an email and see what bits he's willing to sell you.

[FridgeFreezer]

What TRE said, MS1 will run a Thor no problem, you just wire the injectors banked as per every other Rover V8 ever and find some way of regulating the fuel pressure if the fuel system doesn't self-regulate without the OE ECU, this can be as simple as fitting an earlier pump and fuel rail, or a standard aftermarket pressure regulator in line if there's no room under the inlet manifold.

Nige is talking about a KIT of parts including all the brackets for coil packs etc. which will be specific to the Thor manifold shape, there is unlikely to be ANY difference in the ECU itself.

MS3 is fiendishly complicated and you really don't need it, the Rover V8 is a very basic old hector.

[garrycol]

What TRE said, MS1 will run a Thor no problem, you just wire the injectors banked as per every other Rover V8

Thanks but as the Thor is a common rail system, if the injectors are fired by banks rather than individually how do you stop fuel being squirted into non firing cylinders in the same bank? Would seem a big waste of fuel - this is what I understand Megsquirt V8 is doing - modifying MS1 so that it will fire sequentially.

Through the brains trust a while back I was told categorically that MS1 will run a Thor engine so i acquired the relevant manifold etc - but now I am told that it is not quite ready (Nige and his development mate). If I had been told the truth I would have acquired Gems or 4CUX system. People who think they know all MS say it will run all RV8s but that is not true just at the moment - they do not seem to understand that Thor is common rail and full sequential not batch/bank firing like older systems. Read Nige posts above.

I have posts on forums on three continents and on MS dedicated forums and have not come across one person running MS on a Thor engine - I have heard of some but not one person who has a MS Thor engine has posted up their experiences. If you know one get them to post up what they have so I can get real time advice.

Anyway in view of all the conflicting and simply wrong information I am not going to go with MS the Thor at this stage. I believe the original Bosch Motronic can be modified to run away from its parent car in cars like TVR and Morgan and kit cars so am now looking at this. If this draws a blank I will buy a Mega Jolt or basic Megasquirt from a authorized MS dealer in the US where prices are about half they are in the UK and either put carbs or 4CUX on the engine.

The other option is to get a manifold for a Holly carb and put the new Holly self learning self contained injection system on it - does everything MS does without the mucking around.

In the future, once MS systems are fully proved and tested in the market I may revisit then but for now it is not going to happen.

Thanks for all the input.

Garry

[Bowie69]

MS1 won't do sequential injection, it only has two injector outputs and therefore is bank fired. Sequential vs bank fired makes very, very little difference on a RV8, you are just making it much more complicated than it needs be.

MS1 WILL and HAS run a Thor engine, it is a DIY engine management solution, the fact that Nige's kit isn't ready is neither here nor there as to whether it is capable to do it, Nige is sorting out EVERY aspect of a kit so it is as plug and play as it can be.

In the future, once MS systems are fully proved and tested in the market I may revisit then but for now it is not going to happen.

This kinda says to me that you are just not the right client for a MS system, you WILL need to get your hands dirty with MS, it is a DIY system, and compared to every other solution is very, very good value. Nige's kits give you the ultimate, but you can use MS to run just spark for instance, if that is what you choose.

I think fundamentally you have missed the point of MS, it is a free, open source, DIY engine management solution that allows you to modify and tweak every aspect of your engine, you use it how you choose. The fact that you "can't" run it on a Thor is because YOU haven't decided to dig into the documentation properly and make it work. MS1 will run any engine I know of, you just need to get on with it.

[elbekko]

1) Thor is not common-rail, that's another beast altogether

2) You don't need the sequential injection on a Thor, the Bosch ECU does it, but only in optimal conditions. In fact, it'll switch to banked when something goes wrong.

3) Nige is building a kit that is plug-and-play for the Thor engines. You can make any old MS1 work if you change out a few sensors.

Again, there is nothing magical about the Thor engine. It's still a Rover V8, it's still a 50 year old design, it's just that BMW felt like paying Bosch to create a new system that was a bit fancier and could meet new emissions standards (secondary air, EVAP, all stuff you'll be getting rid of anyway).

The fact that you think a carb will work, but not an MS1 ECU, makes me think you haven't quite grasped what you're doing.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

In the future, once MS systems are fully proved and tested in the market I may revisit then but for now it is not going to happen.

The first time I saw MS running an engine was about 10 years ago. I think it's well proved now.

[Cynic-al]

It strikes me that your sore as you have spent a load of money on parts due to other peoples chit chat and opinion. Perhaps you should've done your own research and formed your own opinion before paying out, then atleast you'd only have yourself to blame.

MS is a box that you have to make work with your specific engine to meet your specific requirements yourself, it's not a plug and play kit. I think you've formed the wrong opinion of it.

I don't know if i'm missing something but the fuel can't go into cylinder whilst the valve is shut... right?

[Quagmire]

My advice would be:

Read.

Read.

Read.

Tinker and plan

Read

Read some more

Plan

Plan

Plan

Read

Fit.

Success!

Between here, ms extra and v8forum most questions can be answered.

[Bowie69]

I don't know if i'm missing something but the fuel can't go into cylinder whilst the valve is shut... right?

Correct, but it only really has any effect when at idle, the goal of the injector is to create misted petrol in the inlet tract, not squirt it directly into the cylinder.

[FridgeFreezer]

Pretty much everyone who comes to MS asks how on earth banked injection can ever work properly. It does seem counter-intuitive initially.

However, squirting fuel at the back of a closed valve in a long inlet runner means the air that's rushing down to meet it has time to swirl & mix with the fuel. If you work out how long the valve is ever open for, and how long the injector squirts for, you'll see the two can never be entirely in sync. You don't have to be running the injectors very hard before they're open for longer than the valve is. You'll find that sequential systems only run sequentially up to a certain RPM at which point they give up and just go bank-fire.

Sequential gains a little at the bottom-end and better idle emissions, at the expense of complexity.

Aside from the capacity and the shape of the top bit of inlet manifold your Thor V8 is the same thing as the 30-year-old banked-fire clunker in the original Range Rover Classic EFI.

[Cheesy]

Thanks but as the Thor is a common rail system, if the injectors are fired by banks rather than individually how do you stop fuel being squirted into non firing cylinders in the same bank? Would seem a big waste of fuel - this is what I understand Megsquirt V8 is doing - modifying MS1 so that it will fire sequentially.

Through the brains trust a while back I was told categorically that MS1 will run a Thor engine so i acquired the relevant manifold etc - but now I am told that it is not quite ready (Nige and his development mate). If I had been told the truth I would have acquired Gems or 4CUX system. People who think they know all MS say it will run all RV8s but that is not true just at the moment - they do not seem to understand that Thor is common rail and full sequential not batch/bank firing like older systems. Read Nige posts above.

I have posts on forums on three continents and on MS dedicated forums and have not come across one person running MS on a Thor engine - I have heard of some but not one person who has a MS Thor engine has posted up their experiences. If you know one get them to post up what they have so I can get real time advice.

Anyway in view of all the conflicting and simply wrong information I am not going to go with MS the Thor at this stage. I believe the original Bosch Motronic can be modified to run away from its parent car in cars like TVR and Morgan and kit cars so am now looking at this. If this draws a blank I will buy a Mega Jolt or basic Megasquirt from a authorized MS dealer in the US where prices are about half they are in the UK and either put carbs or 4CUX on the engine.

The other option is to get a manifold for a Holly carb and put the new Holly self learning self contained injection system on it - does everything MS does without the mucking around.

In the future, once MS systems are fully proved and tested in the market I may revisit then but for now it is not going to happen.

Thanks for all the input.

Garry

I havent seen any conflicting information here, at least on this thread. I think you need to do a bit of research on sequential injection and whether or not you really need it. In general there is no big difference in hardware between a batch and sequential system, it may be that in some cases a sequential system requires higher flow injectors and higher fuel pressure to get enough fuel in at the right time or switch to batch fired at higher engine loads. Interestingly you will probably find that with sequential people inject on the closed inlet valve to help atomisation...

You can run the hardware you have as batch or sequential however only MS3 will do sequential injection. MS1 and MS2 will run it perfectly well in batch.

Just because the Thor system was run sequentially does not mean it has to be run sequentially, join 2 sets of 4 wires and it is batch fired

Look at the pros and cons of sequential and decide if you need it (MS batch fired will be far better than the carbs, 14CUX or Holley option)

MS1, MS2 and MS3 as well as many other ECUs ie Link are capable of running this engine

[FridgeFreezer]

To be fair, a fuel injector wired to a flasher relay is capable of running this engine. And boring simple old MS1 has run everything from lawnmowers to Rolls Royce Merlins.