mat2495 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Is there any sort of a definitive list of the different types of axles fitted, and the differences between them? I have tried searching, but not found what I am really after. basically I am looking for a 24 spline rear axle to go under my 90 (maybe with an ashlocker at some point), and am getting myself confused by disco/defender variants, thick/thin drive members etc and am now totally unsure what I am actually looking for. Is it possible to convert a 10 spline axle to 24 for example by using a 24spline center and HD half shafts? Sorry for all the daft questions but i'm in a proper muddle, and hoping someone can give me a few clear answers as to the best way to go about this! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Yes it is possible you need to add 24 spline drive members to the list. Imperial 10 spline drive members had a slightly different PCD to metric 24 spline ones so modding/bodging required or buy HD drive members as some have both sets of holes. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 if you're planning on upgrading to stronger internals at some point, the only real reason to swap from a 10 spline axle is to get rid of the drum brakes. You can get all the 24 spline upgraded bits to fit any 10 spline axle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Why do you want to "upgrade" to 24 spline? What year and engine variant is your vehicle? I'm no expert but all discovery's were thin driving member, and the defender change happened around the 200TDI and definitely by the 300 TDI. The thin flange change indicates the change from rear drums to discs and also when the vehicles started having factory fitted alloys available. With the change to thin flange the 1/2 shafts got shorter too and there are changes to the stub axles too. You can install a 4-pin diff from a factory fit landrover setup with 24 spline 1/2 shafts, and that would be the setup for the LR90 v8 with a HD (heavy duty) rear axle (note the front is still 2-pin 10 spline...), and you can convert that to discs too with the right stub axles, hubs and caliper mounts too ... but most just get a disc axle... there is the parts manual which you could work your way through, but no "definitive" list. If you want a diff centre changing I would recommend that you use someone who does them regularly (contact Nige / Dave Ashcroft), as they would set it up for you and it would be a simple afternoon change for oil drain, 1/2 shafts out, diff off, new diff on, 1/2 shafts in, refill oil. It is not impossible to do diffs but a press helps, likewise tools can be fabricated to set the up and press bearings in and out, and it you do the job properly you should check your shim settings are right (more of an issue if you change the diff casing for a pegged one... and try to re-use the CW&P or don't have the original CW&P + shims), also of note is that crownwheel an pinions wear in a pattern, changing the internals, but reusing the diff means you will need to set up the CW&P again... and sometimes they are beyond use as you can never get a decent mesh pattern on drive and coast sides of the CW&P. Long and short... why do you feel the need to upgrade other than at some time in the future to fit a locker? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 well I'm chasing after an ashcroft locker, and my current axle casing is going to be consigned to the scrap heap with a terminal case of tin worm, so I am looking to make the future work as easy as possible now. I have done a couple of diffs before inc. a salisbury, so not afraid of the work, but admit it would be tempting to get someone else to do it and just buy a complete unit by the sounds of it though any axle case in good order will fit the bill as a platform for upgrading Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Just make sure you know what it came from to make getting parts easier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 One of the best upgrades or strength improvements is to peg the diff which is common on many vehicles to prevent flex / natural forcing appart of the crown wheel and pinion when under load (I know someone who works for an earthmoving company who was baffled when I was explaining the LR diff setup... Like the front crownwheel running in reverse with driving force applied to the coast side of the crown wheel... Hey ho cost saving / standardisation... It is what it is) The cost is in strengthening the front diff: Peg ATB/locker 24 spline half shafts... Which for best strength mate with aeu2522 cv's or aftermarket equivalents ... And may require different stubs for aeu2522's or eq. Stubs if you go 300tdi route and need to convert back.. Tin worm can sometimes be welded, just keep an eye on heat and distortion... All depends where the worm is... Diff pans are a bit consumable and easily welded, fabricated, properly armoured and replaced Most axle brackets are available from the likes ofhttp://www.yrm-metal-solutions.co.uk/epages/BT4822.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT4822/Categories/Defender_parts/Land_Rover_Defender_90 Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Having the front crow wheel and pinion driving that way means that you get more strength in reverse, when is when the front diff would come under the most load. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hmm.. Live and learn... Would have thought the load was near equal most of the time and most of the time the vehicles going forward plus with a difflock on the front axle would have to traverse the obstruction first... All I do know is trying to get a decent mesh pattern drive and coast side on my front cw&p was not possible but the rear was in fair nick hence the front was replaced and I did wonder if it was a consequence of the coast side drive for a 90% tarmac vehicle Is it not different on the newer vehicles or those with an Borg Warner / atlas transfer case where the prop tends to be on the opposite side? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 It is also why some people fit the front tyres reversed (directional pattern treads), so that if you get into something too sticky, you have grip to reverse out. I have seen a fair few MoD LRs like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Genuinely thanks I've leant something there, same with the tyres too, would never have thought of that otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Anyone who has suffered rear prop failure when off-roading will know that front wheel drive is useless on a Land Rover, even decent tyres and a front locker are little help. It's difficult to even got around a site and impossible to tackle any obstacles. Whereas rear wheel drive on a Land Rover will still get you about and won't necessarily ruin your day This leads me to think that it most cases the front axle is doing very little of the tractive work and has a fairly easy life going forwards. As Ross says its reversing up hill/out of a hole that really taxes them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 That's very interesting Lewis.. I've never experienced a defender in FWD mode only but you would think the front axle would provide at least 50% of the traction due to the bulk of the engine/transmission weight being over that axle? Edit: I'm enjoying this thread immensely so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Front wheel drive on the road isn't too bad, but I wouldn't want to do it off-road even with a locker. A reverse cut (in comparison to normal) crownwheel and pinion is only really much use in something like comp safari where you're flat out forwards only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Hmm.. Live and learn... Would have thought the load was near equal most of the time and most of the time the vehicles going forward plus with a difflock on the front axle would have to traverse the obstruction first... All I do know is trying to get a decent mesh pattern drive and coast side on my front cw&p was not possible but the rear was in fair nick hence the front was replaced and I did wonder if it was a consequence of the coast side drive for a 90% tarmac vehicle Is it not different on the newer vehicles or those with an Borg Warner / atlas transfer case where the prop tends to be on the opposite side? Rob That's the issue with swapping diffs front to back, they bed in for one direction and then howl when run the other way. The later ones with a different side drop for the transfer box, it would depend what side of the crownwheel the pinion is driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 That's very interesting Lewis.. I've never experienced a defender in FWD mode only but you would think the front axle would provide at least 50% of the traction due to the bulk of the engine/transmission weight being over that axle? Edit: I'm enjoying this thread immensely so far. All about suspension geometry, the weight transfer under acceleration will transfer the traction to the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I did think about getting a reverse cut cw&p to correct what I thought was a problem, but took the view how much really a difference would it make following front and rear pegging... Hence shelved until running and break something or a problem is actually found. I did wonder if running the cw&p on the coast side up front induced more load on the pinion bearing which is why I seemed to end up with a whole load of backlash there compared to the rear axle (all of which had been in for exactly the same mileage and were original as installed in lode lane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 All about suspension geometry, the weight transfer under acceleration will transfer the traction to the rear. I can understand that theory whilst accelerating heavily off-road or even on road, but not while crawling off-road where acceleration forces are more or less non existent? For instance last year we had very heavy snow. Out of our cul-de-sac is a bit of an incline. Every RWD merc and BMW became instantly stuck whilst all the FWD mondeo, insignia, passat etc etc just plugged on through... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I did think about getting a reverse cut cw&p to correct what I thought was a problem, but took the view how much really a difference would it make following front and rear pegging... Hence shelved until running and break something or a problem is actually found. I did wonder if running the cw&p on the coast side up front induced more load on the pinion bearing which is why I seemed to end up with a whole load of backlash there compared to the rear axle (all of which had been in for exactly the same mileage and were original as installed in lode lane I thought about it when I had Nige build me some 4.7s but decided that as they were going to be pegged and would see most load in reverse I'd be better off staying with standard cut. Not sure, I'd have to have a closer look at a diff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I can understand that theory whilst accelerating heavily off-road or even on road, but not while crawling off-road where acceleration forces are more or less non existent? For instance last year we had very heavy snow. Out of our cul-de-sac is a bit of an incline. Every RWD merc and BMW became instantly stuck whilst all the FWD mondeo, insignia, passat etc etc just plugged on through... Crawling is probably less noticeable I think, but any turning of the wheels will induce movement of the suspension. Main reason BMWs/met a struggle in snow is the width of the back tyres I'd have thought! Also I think you'd need some traction to generate any movement of the suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 That and weight over the front wheels in FWD cars, helps a lot in snow. As traction is low you don't get the transfer of weight so much at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 That and weight over the front wheels in FWD cars, helps a lot in snow. As traction is low you don't get the transfer of weight so much at all. Which is exactly the reason I can't understand how the front axle of a defender seems to provide so little tractive effort? I'm not arguing with the folk that claim the front axle of a defender hardly does anything, I'm just trying to understand the reasons.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Because of that weight transfer. That and a mondeo doesn't have the option for any rear wheel effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I would have not said that the front axle provides so little tractive effort, but (bear in mind I was not of the opinion of this before this thead)... maybe because the front axle is always scabbling for grip (don't forget you will loose some tractive force with a turning axle / differential indiffence, and also that is a leading axle with radius arms and coil springs (although originally they would have been leaf [cart] springs...] ) so most of the effective drive is probable coming from the rear axle pushing via a trailing axle setup... hence more slip in the front axle setup. However to get you out of the brown stuff... in reverse maybe the opposite is true Edit: also you normally need the most reactive effort when going forwards up an incline (hence front scrabbling for grip) or in reverse back up an incline rear axle scrabbling then due to leading and trailing axles plus springs etc) (I've never throught about it before in any great detail and being a humble backyard mechanic know nothing ... haha) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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