twodoorgaz Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Folks - don't spend too much time on this - but if you've got a few minutes to kill then I am sitting with my LR mates with crate of beer and an argument has arisen. We've just watched the start of Skyfall where the 110 is driven a bit racily through Turkey and thoughts have turned to engines and the handling thereof. Between us we have a number of well-built Land Rovers and there are two rebuilds ongoing - one a Stage 1 and mine which incorporates a lot of the stage 1 bits - both of us will be building V8 motors in the coming months with a decent budget and you can, you know...get a bit carried away. Setting aside transmission, tyres, steering and brakes, they've been done to death - if you focused just on the suspension components (springs, dampers, bushes and possibly anti roll bars) - then what would be the optimal bolt-on suspension set-up for a high power V8 109? Lets a healthily-built cross-bolted RV8 with a LR-friendly torque curve driven within its limits. It goes without saying that we're aware that a 109 is not a sports car and that its road handling is always going to be limited. There's oodles of info on parabolics online but they focus on comfort and axle articulation. All of us have only ever owned LRs with standard springs. The application would be fast road (imagine Overfinch or JE were building it - without the bling), but without sacrificing too much off-road ability. 1) My argument: Standard-duty, well maintained multi-leaf springs with anti-roll bars from an Marshall ambulance and polybushes. Possibly with gas dampers but I admit I don't know if they're appropriate for multi-leafs. All from top/OEM companies. Driven thoughtfully and using the power where appropriate. Justification: they're stiff, low and tough. All OEM parts and pretty cheap. Granted it wouldn't be comfortable. 2) Paul: Parabolics with Gas dampers and some custom anti-roll bars or Santana ones if they'll fit. Justification: More comfortable, faster response in the springs, the best/last of the Santana PS-10/Iveco Hanibals had almost 180bhp and they had this set-up from the factory. Possibly use ARBs from a Santana to match the lift of the parabolics (he doesn't think the Marshall Ambulance ones would have the reach for parabolics). Also, the famous rally SIII that was run in Hill Rallies (and probably still is by LandyPhil) started on multi-leaves and moved to parabolics). 3) Matt: You shouldn't build a leaf sprung land rover with more power than a restricted standard 3.5 on carbs. You'll crash immediately. Justification: Land Rover restricted the Stage 1 V8 to 90bhp for a reason. Oh and he also still has a Suzuki X90 which he feels is a fine vehicle to drive. I'm sure there are some competitors on the forum who will have raced comp-safari etc with leaves who could settle this. Thank you for your patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2hse Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 OK. My Stage is not restricted and is 3.9 but still carbed. Regularly cruise at +100km/hr (+67.5mph in old money). At 100km/hr engine turns at 3100rpm. Has standard duty springs (not the heavy duty springs it came with), with standard shocks. Corners well but gets pretty light on the steering when over 120km/hr (3800-ish rpm). Top speed reached on the flat about 145km/hr. Wasn't looking at the tacho. Haven't crashed so that removes Matt from the equation. That's the beast in my avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Fast road handling is of course a relative concept here but I agree there is no reason they shouldn't have sensible handling. With all my V8 SWB trucks in the past I got them to behave eventually, until parabolic springs became available I used to remove leafs from standard springs and keep them wet with grease, the key was always good dampers and in my case I always found Bilsteins to be most repeatable. I never solved the single biggest issue and that was the steering - in perfect mechanical condition it still left you feeling isolated from the road. That of course isn't a bad thing for a utility vehicle but it would always be that aspect that made me back off ( on the road anyway ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2hse Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 My biggest concern were for the door tops flapping about in the vortex created just back from the windscreen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 My biggest concern were for the door tops flapping about in the vortex created just back from the windscreen. This can be a problem, when my vapour build gets to this stage I am going to look into a second inner seal to see if this helps. Tell me, have you located a source for the anti roll bars? I'm looking for a set for my vapour build (or 2 sets, one for the 109 and one for the vapour build.). G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 My truck: 4.6 EFI in top-heavy caged portaled 109 on TIC parabolics with long (14" travel) shocks, no ARB, bouncy 37" tyres. Fast road handling is fine, it cruises at ~70mph but (gearing and wheel/prop balance allowing) will do whatever you dare . As far as I've ever really pushed it, the back end slides (it's still RWD) rather than the vehicle tipping over but of course the huge caveat to that is you can roll anything if you try hard enough. It's been driven with vigour on twisty roads and forest tracks and is stable and predictable and absolutely hilarious. In the days before the 4.6 it had a 3.9EFI, standard series drivetrain, standard 7.50R16 tyres, initially std. springs but then got parabolics + ES9000's and was also fine and I didn't die. So I'd say: 1: Uncomfortable and inflexible 2: Comfier & flexier but no need for ARB's IMHO. 3: I have at least 2x the HP of the carbed 3.5 and haven't died yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Obviously, the suspension set up for spirited driving is still going to vary depending on the rest of the vehicle - weight and centre of gravity will be hugely affected by accessories, body type and loads carried. Certainly the best results will be from stock height or lower vehicles on relatively flat parabolics. Gas dampers will deal better with the constant motion of the suspension as standard dampers may boil over. Spring rate and damper stiffness will depend on the vehicle. Anti roll bars from a 109 Ambulance will do wonders if the vehicle has a high CoG from having a roof rack or tent. A pickup bodied vehicle with no load would probably not benefit from ARBs much. Radial tyres with a lower than usual profile would help a lot. Going wide tread is good for dry roads, but increases aquaplaning in the wet, so 235/80R16 on 7" rims would probably be the way to go, but don't think spacers will help - they will adversely affect steering feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I may be able to offer a voice of experience here. DISCLAIMER: SPIRITED DRIVING DOES NOT NECISSARILY MEAN DRIVING DANGEROUSLY FAST OR SPEEDING - there is a time and place and you don't need to be on the limit of handling to feel the characteristics of a vehicle! with regards to oversteer, i have a private drive which is tarmaced. NOT public road. and therefore not putting other road users in danger. from time to time (as many other drivers may do, and equally many may disagree) i have the urge to go a bit giddy and speed up a bit. I live on a road which is corner after corner in both directions all the way to town. my setup: Its a truck cab 88" with spare mounted to swingaway carrier on rear 235/85R16 Cooper Discoverer STT mud tyres (previously same sized Wranglers) Rocky mountain 3 leaf parabolics on the rear, 2 leaf on the front 50.5% front 49.5% rear weight distribution with total weight of 1680kg standard shock absorbers on front Gas charged +2 shock absorbers on the rear Rear wheel drive only on the road (previously fitted with Ashcroft ATB, currently on open diff waiting for ATB to be pegged. No anti-roll bars front or rear highly tweaked TDi Castor angle increased by ~2° BRAKES THAT DON'T FADE (anywhere near as much as drums all round)!!!!! handling characteristics: Understeer/oversteer characteristics: extremely (And surprisingly) neutral steer with a hint of oversteer if you really go for it. And if its what you really want you can get the back end out quite nicely even in the dry. I CANNOT get it to understeer. (understeer is good for the everyday driver, its a "failsafe" characteristic. its not so great for spirited driving. body roll: It does roll a bit, but surprisingly flat even compared to a standard 90. you can tell the front roll stiffness is much lower than the rear roll stiffness. the same story with bump stiffness. I believe this is why it handles so well (look up relationships of roll stiffness to handling characteristics) Straight line stability: for a Land Rover, and a short wheelbase at that, surprisingly good. 85MPH is far from scary and will sit like that all day long on the M6 Autobahn in germany Noddyness on bumpy roads: Horrendous! obviously. but even when cornering on an undulating road surface the thing will still corner surprisingly well. In the wet: If you don't go steadier in the wet then you are a complete moron in my opinion. things get much more unpredictable much more quickly. That being said, for a Land Rover it still inspires confidence at normal speeds Fast Off road: see noddyness. What i would do to improve?: a front Anti-roll bar, maybe calculated spring and damper rates. and my ATB back in. and it could be a bit longer. Nothing else. Hope this helps. P.S. i have always wanted to enter into a fast event with it to actually compare to other vehicles, however most require a roll cage and i really don't want to bin it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 This can be a problem, when my vapour build gets to this stage I am going to look into a second inner seal to see if this helps. Tell me, have you located a source for the anti roll bars? I'm looking for a set for my vapour build (or 2 sets, one for the 109 and one for the vapour build.). G. before i changed to windy-window-lifty-handle doors i used to resent this, and always considered a subtle wind deflector type thing riveted to the side of the windscreen frame to direct air away from the shutline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 you can roll anything if you try hard enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7_cd6kG8nQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Check out comp safari boys of old. 1980's 1990's the older leaf spring vehicles can be very good. For this vintage. Messing about on the road is the same as asking a boy racer if his 1.0 corsa is fast and handles well. We will be having a go in the 80 inch as it will be log booked it speed events. I don't suspect it will be any good being 80 bit aid a nasty thing to drive. I had parabolic springs but sold them in favour of std leafs. Why? Because that can be tuned a lot easier. Mine are too soft for speed events but I'm sure adding a few more leafs and the added damping of the multi leaf springs doubled with decent shocks there should be no problem handling wise. This is a bit off your topic as comp Safari is offroad. You asked for road handling. Well if it's built right straight and the front axle is orientated correctly it should drive well people slag off older landies but many have not driven one that's absolutly sorted and well maintained. I know a few people that have taken part in rally's and even hill climbed Kop hill in an 88 they all handled well. I think the Kop hill guy used just decent gas shocks and everything else was absolutely std 88 truck cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 before i changed to windy-window-lifty-handle doors i used to resent this, and always considered a subtle wind deflector type thing riveted to the side of the windscreen frame to direct air away from the shutline Would those climair wind deflectors fit a series, I wonder? Would they Help? I'd be leary of riveting to the windscreen outside, though something trapped between the seal and the screen frame might do the trick??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 handling characteristics: Understeer/oversteer characteristics: extremely (And surprisingly) neutral steer with a hint of oversteer if you really go for it. And if its what you really want you can get the back end out quite nicely even in the dry. I CANNOT get it to understeer. (understeer is good for the everyday driver, its a "failsafe" characteristic. its not so great for spirited driving. body roll: It does roll a bit, but surprisingly flat even compared to a standard 90. you can tell the front roll stiffness is much lower than the rear roll stiffness. the same story with bump stiffness. I believe this is why it handles so well (look up relationships of roll stiffness to handling characteristics) Series vehicles oversteer when pushed hard, especially 109s. They also have a lower centre of gravity than the Defender because the engine and transmission are mounted much lower, which helps with roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodoorgaz Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Some superb info there - thank you very much indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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