Radically altered vehicles - lost points

[Bowie69]

True but they can get most of that from a VIN and the manufacturer.

[ejparrott]

This is true, and backs up my argument about the points being cumulative. Should it come to an inspection any time, you would fail if you'd changed the transmission because DVLA don't keep records, and an inspector would always pull the spec from the VIN, which records the original spec fittings.

[B reg 90]

I suspect we should celebrate the vagueness and the room for negotiation it gives us. I remember reading about a German car enthusiast having to get his speed recalibrated by the relevant authority due to a slight change in tyre diameter from manufacturers spec for his car....

[Snagger]

The rules are relatively clear in practice. Any vagueness is because you're overthinking it. If you replace an assembly, as long is it is an equivalent part to the same operating spec, then no problem, but if the specs are different, then you have an issue. So, in the cases of the previous examples:

Steering - changing Defender to Discovery is not a problem as they are equivalent. Changing Series to Defender is an alteration. Changing track rods or drag links to HD is also not a problem as they are regarded as service replacement parts;

Engine - swapping an engine of the same type is no trouble, but changing capacity, fuel type or more is, so not only going from a 12J to Tdi, but even going from 10J (2.25) to 12J (2.5) is an alteration;

Axles - swapping D90 and Discovery/RRC axles is no problem, but swapping them onto a 110 would be an alteration because of the rear axle differences. Swapping between different versions of 110 axles would not be an issue as they are equivalent parts, even going from an early drum brakes Salisbury to a a late 4-pin Rover type. You can uprate diffs, shafts and brakes with no issues - the rule seems more concerned with the axle case than its innards. Reinforced diff pans are, again, service replacement.

Suspension - you can replace damaged or worn parts, you just need to keep the original system and dimensions. So, lifted coilers with cranked or drilled radius arms are a mod, but replacing with standard parts, including changing spring rates, is just service replacement. The DVLA permit the use of parabolic springs on leafers as a direct service replacement rather than mod as they are dimensionally the same, needing no alteration to fit, despite usually altering ride height.

All of the above seems to be a judicious application of common sense. The rules are not there to stop us maintaining our vehicles or improving older modles, they are there to stop blatent deception by ringing. The real grey areas are entered by those looking to create them because they know they are bending or breaking the rules.

[miketomcat]

I think you've pretty much nailed it snagger that's how I read it and don't see any room for maneuver other than tighter.

Mike

[Chicken Drumstick]

I think the point that is being missed is its not exact componentry its design , eg a discovery axle on a 90 is still the same type , it will bolt straight in . A discovery axle on a series 3 is not

Again, not trying to be funny about this. But what type of axle is on a Series then?

If it's about design, which I think it should be when this whole set of rule is about Radically altered vehicles.

A Series axle is a solid/live/beam axle. So are the Defender ones. I would say they are 100% the same type. And only have minor differences in mounting locations, which arguably have no bearing or relation to it's 'type' or 'design'.

For example, you can get Dana 60's to fit many different vehicles. They can be the exact same axle, just have different mounting points. So on say a non Land Rover product, is it really fair to claim it's radically altered because you swapped Ford Dana 60 for a GM Dana 60 and altered the mounts?

, it requires extensive modification .

Personally I'd say it requires minor modification, in the world of car modifications, altering some bracketry on a live axle tube is pretty insignificant.

Likewise suspension going from leaf to coil , is not a straight bolt in .

I agree it isn't 100% straight forward.

But hence why things should be defined. Because a sweeping statement of "suspension" is a pretty broad stoke. Where as arguably you could say leaf to coil is only changing the 'spring' type. For instance what is IRS? Is it an axle type or suspension type? It's name would suggest the latter, but it could be both.

So what is suspension? If it's the bit the physically suspends the car, then fitting coil overs or air suspension should be seem as the same.

same as fitting a l/crusr axle . gearbox eg in a V8 110 changing from 5 speed r380 from lt85 , still a manual gearbox and a bolt in job ,and both were fitted. I would consider my 90 with a 300tdi in place of its 2.5turbo points neutral but the auto gearbox would be points negative. When dvla were informed of the change of engine and gearbox , no query was mentioned. When

i fitted a six cylinder turbo diesel BMW into my V8 110 it had to have inspection by mot garage. It would appear that there is no exact standard , which I am not surprised by particularly with my insight into the system .

Yes I think this is the issue.

[ejparrott]

Series are axles are shorter and are designed to be leaf sprung so they have saddles, Coiler axles are wider and have mountings for panhard rods and radius arms and stuff.

I would not like to say how you get on with converting a coiler axle to leaf as Nick has done, but I would expect were it to go to inspection they would take the axle number and correctly identify it as a coiler axle so you'd loose points. Plus I would expect someone along the way to either ask you for prove, or know their stuff.

[Chicken Drumstick]

The rules are relatively clear in practice.

I think we will have to disagree here. I'm certainly not saying what is done in practice doesn't happen, but that without clear definitions, what they have written down and posted in this thread is rather meaningless by and large.

Now a key thing I'd like to point out is, this is meant to be "radically" altered. Without a definition of what "radically" means, the whole thing is worthless from the very beginning. As many of the things you cite below certainly wouldn't fall under "radical" for me. So I wouldn't even considered the rules to even apply to non radically altered, but still modified vehicles.

Any vagueness is because you're overthinking it.

Well no not really

If you replace an assembly, as long is it is an equivalent part to the same operating spec, then no problem, but if the specs are different, then you have an issue. So, in the cases of the previous examples:

So changing anything from manufacture 100% spec is a "radically" altered vehicle? Really?????

Steering - changing Defender to Discovery is not a problem as they are equivalent.

Yet not the same as pointed out earlier, so while not overthinking this, you have already contradicted yourself. It either is or isn't the same. "operating spec" is far too vague without parameters.

Changing Series to Defender is an alteration. Changing track rods or drag links to HD is also not a problem as they are regarded as service replacement parts;

As I postulated earlier, how about fitting the assisting hydraulic rams to the Series steering? The end result (which at the end of the day is the only thing that really matters), would be the same. If this is ok, then surely "bolting" in a PAS setup by other means is just as acceptable.

And again, it's the matter of if this is a "radically altered" vehicle. I'd say no 100%. Radically altered would be making it 4 wheel steer, making it have the steering wheel in the middle. Making it LHD drive while retaining RHD linkages. Hydrosteer setups.

Engine - swapping an engine of the same type is no trouble, but changing capacity, fuel type or more is, so not only going from a 12J to Tdi, but even going from 10J (2.25) to 12J (2.5) is an alteration;

This is always an interesting one and each time I ask the same scenarios and thus far nobody has ever answered them.

What is an engine? As in which bits count?

Lets assume some 'vapour' examples.

3.5 Range Rover.

Scenario 1

You keep the block, the heads, the intake manifold. But you replace the crank to stroke it to 4.3 litres. === Is this still the same engine?

Scenario 2

You swap in a entirely different 3.5 RV8 === Is this still the same engine?

Scenario 3

The block is cracked, you get a new 3.5 block and use all the other bits from the old engine === Is this still the same engine?

Scenario 4

You fit a 3.9 RV8 === Is this still the same engine?

Scenario 5

You keep the original block, but replace the crank, the pistons, well all the rotating assembly, you change the heads and everything else. In fact the only thing retained is the bare block, that you may or may not have had rebored === Is this still the same engine?

Again arguably I personally don't think any of these are "radical" alterations. So the rules shouldn't apply IMO. But you clearly said capacity changes. So should all of these loose points for the engine work?

[Chicken Drumstick]

Axles - swapping D90 and Discovery/RRC axles is no problem, but swapping them onto a 110 would be an alteration because of the rear axle differences. Swapping between different versions of 110 axles would not be an issue as they are equivalent parts, even going from an early drum brakes Salisbury to a a late 4-pin Rover type. You can uprate diffs, shafts and brakes with no issues - the rule seems more concerned with the axle case than its innards. Reinforced diff pans are, again, service replacement.

So what if you took a Series axle, loped the tubes off it and put on longer tubes to the same size as a coil axle and replaced the innards?

This might sound like I'm trying to be picky/difficult, I'm not, so hope it doesn't come across that way. But my point is, if the end result is the same, and one is allowed and the other isn't. Then the route you get to the end point really shouldn't make any difference.

Suspension - you can replace damaged or worn parts, you just need to keep the original system and dimensions.

Well we know this isn't true. As in what is an "original" system? I mentioned this earlier on.

If you fit coilovers to a vehicle that previously had separate shocks and springs. Is that really a "radically" altered vehicle? It certainly contravenes the point you've just declared. How about fitting coils to a p38a Range Rover... no such thing from the factory. But is it really sane to call it "radically altered"?

As for dimensions. Well anybody with a 2" lift kit is pretty buggered then. How about the parabolic springs I've recently bought for my Series 3, they are way longer than standard ones.

If "suspension" includes axle location --- which is why I say it isn't defined.

Then how about things like cranked trailing arms or castor correct radius arms??

ok, I see you mention some of this....

So, lifted coilers with cranked or drilled radius arms are a mod, but replacing with standard parts, including changing spring rates, is just service replacement.

Service replacement is your interpretation though, none of this is clearly written down, so who is to say you are correct or not? Which is again, my main point -- none of it is defined.

For the record, coil springs are also different lengths, not just rates. So is a +4" spring really the same as a standard one? No of course it isn't. But whether it is "radically altered", well that I'm not so sure.

The DVLA permit the use of parabolic springs on leafers as a direct service replacement rather than mod as they are dimensionally the same, needing no alteration to fit, despite usually altering ride height.

Well they aren't dimensionally the same. And do you have reference to them "permitting" them? Or indeed reference that they even classify springs down to this level?

All of the above seems to be a judicious application of common sense. The rules are not there to stop us maintaining our vehicles or improving older modles, they are there to stop blatent deception by ringing. The real grey areas are entered by those looking to create them because they know they are bending or breaking the rules.

Maybe, maybe not. But when things are unclear and undefined, it leaves it open to opinion and interpretation. Which is never usually a good thing. As for common sense, well I'd love to see how you define that. As what is perfectly reasonable to you, may be outrageous to another, or vice versa.

For example.

If you had an early NAD non PAS 90 and you fitted it with a an R380, 300Tdi (stroked to 2.8 litres), cranked trailing arms, castor corrected radius arms, Discovery front axle, Sailsbury rear axle, +5" shocks, +4" springs, added PAS, Disco steering linkages, a smaller steering wheel. Then it would seem to fail much of what you've written and probably loose it's identity.

I'm still not convinced it would be a "radically" altered vehicle however.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Series are axles are shorter and are designed to be leaf sprung so they have saddles, Coiler axles are wider and have mountings for panhard rods and radius arms and stuff.

I don't deny that they are wider/shorter. But non of it has anything to do with it's "type" or "design". They are both

solid/beam/live axles.

And neither axle was designed with regard to spring type, that is simply one of the mounting points on the casing. As in many applications the same axle is used for leaf and coil vehicles.

[ejparrott]

I don't deny that they are wider/shorter. But non of it has anything to do with it's "type" or "design". They are both

solid/beam/live axles.

And neither axle was designed with regard to spring type, that is simply one of the mounting points on the casing. As in many applications the same axle is used for leaf and coil vehicles.

Point accepted, however as I said, were it to go to an inspection, the numbers would be checked, and you'd be found (for example) to have a 1989 axle that is supposed to be coil, on a 1966 registered vehicle.

[ejparrott]

As it's just reared it's head in another post, how exactly do Designa Chassis get away with a coil sprung 88 chassis? According to the radically altered vehicle rules, that means 9 out of 14 points are lost, which means it must loose it'd ID or go for an IVA surely?

[Bowie69]

I dislike the way 'Radically altered vehicle' is being bandied around in this thread, in this thread we are talking about 'Rebuilt vehicles'.

Read:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

For 'Radically Altered' vehicles, the points system determines if you keep the registration mark, that is all, it assumes you are going for an IVA inspection (or similar).

Points system for 'Rebuilt vehicles' determines if the vehicle will need re-registering, probably on a Q, and may involve an IVA.

So..... changing suspension alone is not 'Radically altered'.

And it is quite clear for rebuilt vehicles, the word used is 'original' , to quote:

'You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.'

...and looking at the form you use, it is asking for 'Origin -Registration number or new'.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278783/V627X1_270913.pdf

Think it is pretty clear cut, and anyone arguing against it is just attempting to get around the rules, or have a suspect vehicle themselves.

Also, ejparrot, the site it quite clear on this, you would lose the ID, and need an IVA most likely:

'Keep a vehicle’s original registration number

A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)

a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)'

Oooh, internet facts again!

[Snagger]

Chicken, are you just trolling here?

If you fit hydraulic assistance rams to the existing steering, then you obviously retain the points for the steering as the original system is still in place, you have merely added an accessory to it.

As for changing the capacity of an engine, then it is plainly obvious the specification has been altered and it no longer constitutes the same engine, even if you used the same block, so you lose that one point.

Springs are service replacement parts, but dimensionally different suspension arms are not, so swapping springs is acceptable but proper lift kits with castor correction arms will lose the two associated points. That won't "bugger" many people as most with lifts haven't made enough other changes that the two suspension points are critical.

Series and coiler axles are clearly different specifications, and cannot possibly be construed as a direct replacement, as much as I'd love for that to be the case as it'd allow me to swap out the transmission too, points wise.

The rules are also fairly clear in that to qualify for retaining the points on a rebuilt, the assemblies need to be the originals units, not just of the same spec, except the chassis if supported by a sales document to prove it's new and consumable parts like brake components, springs, dampers, bushes, seals and the like. So, the axles, engine and transmission need to be the original items fitted in the factory. They are allowed to be repaired with new parts, so in essence the rules are that the engine block and axle and transmission cases muste be original, not necessarily their innards, but still retaining original spec (ie. no over boring or stroking). Otherwise, you'd be able to build a new vehicle out of second hand or rebuilt assemblies and a new chassis and stick any old VIN on it, which would obviously be ringing.

You are applying extreme lack of logic to a fairly simple system. Whether it be because you want to justify breaking the rules or are just spoiling for a fight on the forum I don't know, but everyone else can see how it works, so why are you continuing to argue pointless semantics?

[Snagger]

As it's just reared it's head in another post, how exactly do Designa Chassis get away with a coil sprung 88 chassis? According to the radically altered vehicle rules, that means 9 out of 14 points are lost, which means it must loose it'd ID or go for an IVA surely?

Yep, you lose the chassis, suspension and axle points straight away.

[Bowie69]

I think you would get away with increasing capacity, it is still the original engine to the registration mark, the engine number is on the block normally, you retain that, you retain the points.

I don't think it is about original spec, more original componentry, if you read the links above.

[ejparrott]

Bowie is right and it's probably my fault, what we're dealing with is really the rebuilt vehicle rules and not the radically altered rules. I hadn't expected to go in to quite such depth and I had generalised somewhat.

[miketomcat]

As it's just reared it's head in another post, how exactly do Designa Chassis get away with a coil sprung 88 chassis? According to the radically altered vehicle rules, that means 9 out of 14 points are lost, which means it must loose it'd ID or go for an IVA surely?

Didn't a load of series with coil chassis get hammered a few years ago as a result I think it was stated you can still buy and use them but it's up to the owner to seek the correct registration iva or whatever.

Mike

[ejparrott]

I don't know, and I looked them up to see, but I couldn't find any mention on their website about the need for the vehicle to have an IVA and new registration as a result of loosing it's points for chassis, axles and suspension. Could never understand how such a company could survive.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I dislike the way 'Radically altered vehicle' is being bandied around in this thread, in this thread we are talking about 'Rebuilt vehicles'.

I suppose the thing is, they could be one in the same however. You could rebuild a vehicle and radically alter it at the same time.

As it stands, I wasn't the first to mention the points system. Which according to the links you provided, only actually apply to radically altered, not rebuilt vehicles. But how you know which is which, is anyones guess.

Read:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

Ta. Have read them before, although the wording is now different from the last time I looked at them.

For 'Radically Altered' vehicles, the points system determines if you keep the registration mark, that is all, it assumes you are going for an IVA inspection (or similar).

It doesn't actually say that on the page you linked. It says specifically "evidence of type approval, if necessary".

Points system for 'Rebuilt vehicles' determines if the vehicle will need re-registering, probably on a Q, and may involve an IVA.

So..... changing suspension alone is not 'Radically altered'.

And it is quite clear for rebuilt vehicles, the word used is 'original' , to quote:

'You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.'

To be fair, the radically altered page also states "original", to quote:

Suspension (front and back) - original

Axles (both) - original

Transmission - original

Steering assembly - original

Engine - original

Think it is pretty clear cut, and anyone arguing against it is just attempting to get around the rules, or have a suspect vehicle themselves.

Well if it's clear cut, most old and modified cars are probably illegal then.

Look at what it actually says:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)

Where does the chassis start and end and what constitutes unmodified? You have to "modify" the chassis to replace the rear cross member. As you are cutting off and welding on. It might be a "repair" also, but that doesn't mean it isn't a modification.

How about welding a patch on? Or cutting a rotten bit out and replacing it with some sheet or box tubing?

And there are plenty of other things that people modify. Roll cage mounts are clearly a modification to the chassis. Welding a mounting plate for a p38 steering box is a modification. So on face value, lots and lots of vehicles, but especially Land Rovers would fail on this step alone, meaning they should be Q reg.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis

This is clear cut too. You CANNOT modify the chassis to retain the registration.

So even welding in new engine mounts "technically" means you're vehicle will be Q reg, even if you change nothing else.

Obviously this isn't the case as there are 100's/1000's of such modified vehicles legally rolling about retaining their registration. So it therefore cannot be clear cut.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Chicken, are you just trolling here?

Having a different point of view is not trolling. I'm trying to highlight and justify what I'm saying and citing examples. I have no bias in this, I'm looking at purely from how it is worded on a rational and logical level.

If you fit hydraulic assistance rams to the existing steering, then you obviously retain the points for the steering as the original system is still in place, you have merely added an accessory to it.

I don't disagree with your sentiments. But this comes down to what is meant by original steering. I see the wording on the Gov sites now says "assembly", so maybe it covers it.

However you earlier said it about "type" and "design". And on face value, Power Assisted Steering, simple isn't the same type or design as non assisted steering.

As for changing the capacity of an engine, then it is plainly obvious the specification has been altered and it no longer constitutes the same engine, even if you used the same block, so you lose that one point.

Reading the links provided by Bowie, neither say anything about engine specification. So I'm not convinced changing the displacement does count. The block is the only thing with a number on, so logically the only thing they can check is that. Fitting a high lift cam also changes the specification, or swapping on a 16v head instead of an 8v one (other engines), changes the spec. None of which the DVLA care about.

Series and coiler axles are clearly different specifications, and cannot possibly be construed as a direct replacement, as much as I'd love for that to be the case as it'd allow me to swap out the transmission too, points wise.

The rules are also fairly clear in that to qualify for retaining the points on a rebuilt, the assemblies need to be the originals units, not just of the same spec, except the chassis if supported by a sales document to prove it's new and consumable parts like brake components, springs, dampers, bushes, seals and the like. So, the axles, engine and transmission need to be the original items fitted in the factory. They are allowed to be repaired with new parts, so in essence the rules are that the engine block and axle and transmission cases muste be original, not necessarily their innards, but still retaining original spec (ie. no over boring or stroking). Otherwise, you'd be able to build a new vehicle out of second hand or rebuilt assemblies and a new chassis and stick any old VIN on it, which would obviously be ringing.

On this note. It still doesn't say specification when referencing any of the items on either of the links. Take a look if you want.

And it would appear "ringing" is far more legal. There is nothing to stop you buying new everything (assuming it exists) and simply sticking the VIN on it.

You are applying extreme lack of logic to a fairly simple system.

No I'm applying a lot of common sense logic, to a very poorly defined system. You might not like some of things I've said, but that hardly means they are untrue. It is just you have your own views and your own interpretation. However stand back and look at the exact wording, it is very clear you can do almost nothing and that a lot of vehicles fail either Rebuilt or Radically altered. In fact the so named Radically altered, to the strictest letter doesn't really allow for any radically modifications ironically.

The reality is however, there are a lot of cars which would appear to be legal (using common sense), but clearly fail to meet these points. Which goes to prove how badly defined and open to interpretation it all is.

Whether it be because you want to justify breaking the rules or are just spoiling for a fight on the forum I don't know, but everyone else can see how it works, so why are you continuing to argue pointless semantics?

Ok then if it's so obvious and easy.

You have a Series 3, you buy a new chassis for it. You fit a Tdi, coil axles and PAS. Leaf suspension, standard gearbox.

Is this:

a) Rebuilt vehicles

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

or

b) Radically altered vehicles

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

How about a bobtailed Range Rover or Discovery? How exactly to they pass for either, as the chassis is modified. Which is a no no to retain the registration under either set of rules. Do you agree?

[Chicken Drumstick]

Bowie is right and it's probably my fault, what we're dealing with is really the rebuilt vehicle rules and not the radically altered rules. I hadn't expected to go in to quite such depth and I had generalised somewhat.

I sort of asked snagger this. But how do you know which set of rules apply? And if you actually read them fully, they are essentially the same anyhow.

They both essentially say you need an unmodified chassis. + 2 major components from the original.

I suppose the fact it only references "original" and not "original manufacture" could be where your friend is coming from.

For example.

If you rebuild the vehicle and retain the chassis + 2 components. Then that is deemed as "original". And as the Rebuilt vehicles doesn't lose the points it can't have lost any can it? (well who knows, but that is how it's written).

This new 'original' specification now gives you the starting point to turn it into a radically altered vehicle. So you now only need to retain the unmodified chassis + 2 original components (original being how it is before you turn it into a radically altered vehicle, as it clearly doesn't say original manufacture). So you could in theory change some more bits and only loose points here and then, as this is the only time the points system is used.

Example.

Rebuilt vehicle - Series II 88, with new chassis unmodified with Tdi and coil axles.

Total points lost = none. Because it isn't rated on the points system. DVLA/VOSA now accept this as the being original.

You now want to radically alter it. you change the gearbox and add PAS (without modifying the chassis somehow).

Before the radical alterations you will have still retained 9 points or more.

_______________________

I'm not saying this is how it works in practice or even if the Gov site correctly reflects regulations. But it is how it is written and it is perfectly plausible and logical to make this assumption. You might not like or agree with it personally (I'm not sure I do tbh). But that isn't the point, the point is, it is written in such a way that you can correctly interpret it that way.

And there is nothing to say you can only rebuild OR radically alter a vehicle. It seems you can do both.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I don't know, and I looked them up to see, but I couldn't find any mention on their website about the need for the vehicle to have an IVA and new registration as a result of loosing it's points for chassis, axles and suspension. Could never understand how such a company could survive.

Clearly they survive because it is such a grey area and simply isn't clear cut.

There are loads of companies that build and modify MGB's, E-Type Jags, MK1/2 Escorts even Jensens. All offer period registrations. Yet all are substantially modified. And on face value would all need to be "kit" cars on a new Reg or a Q plate. As they aren't, the only logical conclusion is, this is not a simple thing.

[Snagger]

A bobtailed RR/Discovery would indeed need IVA, just like the Designa coiled Series chassis based vehicle or a 6x6. Even the 100" RRC/Defender hybrds need them as the chassis, while unaltered in wheel base, have altered rear cross members, out riggers and rear rail ends, regardless of the body work being irrelevant and all the mechanical parts being from the donor RRC.

The steering issue of strap on hyd assistance has been proven with the bolt-on ram kit for Series LRs - I had it from the DVLA themselves when I did my rebuild that as it is a supplemental rather than replacement system, with the original system still fitted, then the points are retained. I never bought the system due to various reasons, cost being a big one, and recently sacrificed two points by fitting Defender/P38 hybrid steering.

As far as the engine is concerned, while the word "specification" might not appear, the rules state that for the engine to count, it must be the original engine (not just one of the same type). While repair and reconditioning is perfectly allowable (often necessary for emissions, frankly), modification is not. In that, it is the same principle as the chassis - you can use a brand new one, but it has to be of original specification.

I concede that the rules are poorly written; laws invariably are, which is why lawyers make so much money by twisting and distorting them to make loop holes. But that is a conscious act.

However, if you read them dispassionately without trying to read in allowances for altering a list of things you want to do, they're fairly easily intelligible and clear for practical purposes. The greyishness will afford some protection for those who knowingly break them, and aspects such as retaining the original casings on older vehicles will never work - only engine numbers were kept with VIN details, so no DVLA inspector would ever know that you have replaced axles or transmissions like for like, and the steering boxes and relays weren't even numbered. So, you could easily build up a new vehicle from a new chassis and reconditioned parts and stick an old VIN on it; there would be no way to tell if you used period spec parts. But that is what the rules attempt to stop.

[L19MUD]

It seems absolutely mad that a RR with the last 6 inches of the chassis cut off to form a bobtail but 100% original for all the other points related items would lose its reg and need a full IVA .

Yet it would be fine under the points system to fit axles from a hummer and the engine from a lorry...

common sense does not appear to prevail!