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Radically altered vehicles - lost points


ejparrott
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I'm having an argument....

Points lost are lost, yes or no?

Arguee says' if you change an engine from original, says 2286 to 200, point lost, notify DVLA of engine change, point regained. Points lost are not cumulative, so if you change the engine and notify DVLA, then next year change the steering, then next year change the chassis to coils with defender axles, you haven't accrued more than 8 points lost in one go so the ID is not lost.

I say refer to the DVLA page on radically altered vehicles where it quite clearly says that to secure the point for an engine it must be original, likewise steering, suspension...all are original.

He says DVLA can accept the engine change why can't I, show him in black and white where it says points lost are cumulative.

I say I'm bloody right and I know it!

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Its not the originality of the item that loses the point its type , eg if you have a 4 cylinder diesel and you fit a v8 petrol then thats gone

then if you fit coil springs , from leafs thats gone , if you just change the coils that is like for like so no loss. Likewise going from steering box to rack and pinion is a loss. so if you start with a series 3 2.286 diesel and fit a V8 , auto with coils and rack and pinion , and independent front end who could argue that its still a series 3 , so perfectly logical system .

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Yep, that is a problem for me with the transmission change I'd like to do (like yours, but with the BW transfer box) - I have 9 points now, so can't lose two more for the transmission, having already lost the points for the engine, axles and steering.

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Its not the originality of the item that loses the point its type , eg if you have a 4 cylinder diesel and you fit a v8 petrol then thats gone

then if you fit coil springs , from leafs thats gone , if you just change the coils that is like for like so no loss. Likewise going from steering box to rack and pinion is a loss. so if you start with a series 3 2.286 diesel and fit a V8 , auto with coils and rack and pinion , and independent front end who could argue that its still a series 3 , so perfectly logical system .

Exactly what I've been trying to tell him, but he's not listening! He thinks that if you change the engine and tell DVLA, that then becomes the new standard for the vehicle, therefore next time it's inspected the changed engine is not included and points are not lost because the DVLA already know about it! Weirdest idea I've ever heard. Quite how that is supposed to work with any other part of the vehicle I do not know as the DVLA keeps no record of them to my knowledge!

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Points lost are lost forever - until the change is back to the original spec according to the VIN no. as it left the factory. But that is not easy as a friend found when he refitted the original engine in order to get the exempt status back...

Like you, Holland has a very strict point system and loosing the year is very expensive....

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You right you can do like for like swap and not lose points but change the type for instance defender steering to disco steering the the points are gone. However here is the grey area I've put the 110 back to the correct transmission so theoretically no one can prove the points were lost in the first place. But if you have a say 89 reg 90/110 running a 300tdi r380 and disc rear axle your not original therefore potentially subject to iva. Unless you can prove it has been checked and registered under previous legislation (sva or dvla/vic check).

Mike

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You right you can do like for like swap and not lose points but change the type for instance defender steering to disco steering the the points are gone. However here is the grey area I've put the 110 back to the correct transmission so theoretically no one can prove the points were lost in the first place. But if you have a say 89 reg 90/110 running a 300tdi r380 and disc rear axle your not original therefore potentially subject to iva. Unless you can prove it has been checked and registered under previous legislation (sva or dvla/vic check).

Mike

I'm not sure about the IVA if I'm honest. Definitely 3 points lost for engine and trans, axles....not sure. if you did a bolt on as per early vehicles then you could probably argue that one, brakes are not included in the points system anyway. Using a later axle with welded calliper mounts I would say you definitely loose the 2 points, but that still leaves you with 9...not sure if that would require an IVA, not sufficiently clued up to be certain on that

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Sorry I wasn't being specific with my example it was just the first things that came to mind. Most people swap the whole axle for a disc axle ie disco or later 110 as you say if you convert it then that should be fine providing you can prove the base axle is the same type. I couldn't think of anything else to list off hand nor could I be bothered to look up the exact number of points either in my example or needed. The only reason I picked 300tdi/R380 was I knew someone would argue a 200tdi/stubby R380 could be converted back easily and regain the points. I hope that clears up the point I was trying to make.

Mike

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You right you can do like for like swap and not lose points but change the type for instance defender steering to disco steering the the points are gone.

Mike

Just out of curiosity, do you have any links for this?

I've looked in the past and never found any definition of what the different components compromise.

For instance, I don't see Defender to Disco steering any more radical or different from changing a steering wheel. Or fitting HD steering arms.

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Just out of curiosity, do you have any links for this?

I've looked in the past and never found any definition of what the different components compromise.

For instance, I don't see Defender to Disco steering any more radical or different from changing a steering wheel. Or fitting HD steering arms.

Disco and Defender steering is identical except for the upper column, which you wouldn't swap, and the track rod, which is a service replacement part and wouldn't be an issue (nor would the HD versions) as they're not fundamentally different to the original.

The points are comprised as follows:

Chassis (original and unaltered, repairs allowed, or brand new to same spec): 5

Axles (original, both together): 2 (both lost if either axle is replaced)

Steering: 2

Suspension: 2

Transmission: 2

Engine: 1

You need to score 8 or more. Note, there are no points for the body, so all these Defenders with SII vins are ringers.

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Err swan neck and pitman arm are different so is damper mount and position.

No links off hand, but you can swap for new replacement parts of most anything but land rover the way they are it's difficult to prove the part wasn't new/original (provided it's the same) though it's not follow it to the letter of the law.

Mike

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Yes, but the Tdi doesn't do the job to the same specification as the 12J, whereas as an HD steering rod does, and the Tdi does need a fair bit of vehicle modification to fit. I get where you're coming from, though. It's a bit grey, and I agree that a jobsworth inspector could cause complications if they so chose and noticed the small differences in those basic parts.

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Disco and Defender steering is identical except for the upper column, which you wouldn't swap, and the track rod, which is a service replacement part and wouldn't be an issue (nor would the HD versions) as they're not fundamentally different to the original.

The points are comprised as follows:

Chassis (original and unaltered, repairs allowed, or brand new to same spec): 5

Axles (original, both together): 2 (both lost if either axle is replaced)

Steering: 2

Suspension: 2

Transmission: 2

Engine: 1

You need to score 8 or more. Note, there are no points for the body, so all these Defenders with SII vins are ringers.

Yes that's exactly my point. All I've ever seen online is pretty much what you've posted:

"steering" or "axles" or "suspension".

But I'm yet to see a definition of what these mean.

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I reckon axles mean that; whether you should have disks or drums can always be argued, that wont loose points. Also, as mentioned, steering between disco or defender are one and the same thing. The vosa doesn't know or care one bit if the droparm is different. If they do, you can always argue that the drop arm was changed to make it an easier field fix. You guys really need to take these point rules with a pinch of salt.

Daan

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Really? Seems pretty clear to me.

Not trying to be difficult about this. But how can it be clear when it's so vague.

If you take it literally then changing the steering has altered the steering. How about adding. Assister Rams to original steering. End result is still power assistance and arguably more radically modified.

A live axle from a Defender is not fundamentally any different to a Series axle. I wouldn't personally call fitting one "radical". I'm certainly not questioning it being a mod. But "radical" for a radically altered vehcile. Well that's something else.

In fact I'm not sure I'd even call fitting other non Land Rover axles a radical mod. So long as it's basic design was fundamentally the same. Swapping in a Tdi over a 2.25 certainly isn't radical as it is essentially the same block and crank.

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A good starting point is "did it come out of the Land Rover factory and can it be swopped with just nuts and bolts?".

I think any inspector would have to be pretty clued up to spot a disco axle on a defender or a 77/380 gearbox swop.

Even if they did, neither are that far removed from the original.

Power steering or defender axles on a series are not fundamentally the same as the originals.

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I think the point that is being missed is its not exact componentry its design , eg a discovery axle on a 90 is still the same type , it will bolt straight in . A discovery axle on a series 3 is not , it requires extensive modification . Likewise suspension going from leaf to coil , is not a straight bolt in . same as fitting a l/crusr axle . gearbox eg in a V8 110 changing from 5 speed r380 from lt85 , still a manual gearbox and a bolt in job ,and both were fitted. I would consider my 90 with a 300tdi in place of its 2.5turbo points neutral but the auto gearbox would be points negative. When dvla were informed of the change of engine and gearbox , no query was mentioned. When

i fitted a six cylinder turbo diesel BMW into my V8 110 it had to have inspection by mot garage. It would appear that there is no exact standard , which I am not surprised by particularly with my insight into the system .

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