What Wideband kit are MS people using.

[Davecrx]

Hello to all.

I'm looking into buying a wideband lamba kit to tune the MS better than a stock sensor could.

In past I have used AEM's uego kit as well as the kits available from innovative.

So which kits do others use and how well do they work with MS

Thanks Dave

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Interesting Post

IMHO this was proven to be a non runner a bit with Ian G / aka Bull Bar Cowboy who with me tuned his nice rebuilt v8 with narrow band + margarine and megalogviewer and after some work turned up at a full blown rolling road - and the owner said not to waste his money

But if you really want a wb go LC1

But I'll stand on the above

Nige

[Rob_B]

I use a Innovate mtx-l. It is just like the LC1 but everything is build in a 52 mm gauge. That way everything is installed in or under (if you don't want the gauge in view) your dash. And with the gauge you can see what is happing if you don't have the laptop with you.

Before that I used a NAW OEM from 14point7.com but for some reason 2 lambda sensors died on that controller. I don't know why that happened and didn't want to try with a 3rd sensor.

Both worked fine with the MS1.

Nige, how do you tune the WOT part safely with a narrowband sensor?

[zoltan]

I used the Innovate LC1 and kept it separate from MS as there were two different readings when I fed the WB into MS. Since we use the LC1 on the dyno I was inclined to believe it and not the MS. 4 years on and nothing has melted.

Unless you have psychic abilities I don't see how you can get results anywhere as quickly with NB on a V8 without using practically the cost of a WB in fuel. Happy to be educated though

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

this is a good read of options

http://msextra.com/d...GO_Control.html

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/ego_sensors.htm

forget ones MS3 (I'm learning curving MS3 at the moment ! ) as with all things MS some of the more

current stuff yeilds useful historical learning info

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

Worth remembering that when some of us started out playing with MS, widebands were £££ and not so easy to setup. Megalogviewer would take a datalog, analyse O2 switching points Vs corrections being applied by the ECU across the map and do the maths - example: if the sensor went across stoich. when the ECU was applying -5% correction, we know that 5% less fuel at that spot in the fuel table would give us 14.7:1, so to aim for a different target you add or subtract from that known point. Not perfect, it can't quite reach everywhere but it can get you within X% of what you'd do with a wideband and target AFR's.

As Nige said, Ian got his truck tuned very sweetly using that method, and others have found similar when getting round to sticking a wideband in, that the narrowband version was plenty close enough. As long as you start by erring on the rich side at high loads and then carefully bring it down you're OK.

I've never had a wideband near my truck, simply through laziness rather than by choice!

[Quagmire]

I'm using an LC1 - it is connected to MS so I can log AFR's and autotune easily I have verified that the AFR reported in Tunerstudio/Megatune is within a tenth of that shown directly from the LC1 itself. The LC1 sensor ground is connected to the MS grounds to achieve this.

[TSD]

I've got one of the original TechEdge WBO2 kits, and one of the early Innovate handheld units. Correctly built and calibrated there's not much to choose between them, though the Innovate unit is much nicer. I never had either of mine connected to the MS though, except by faking the NB input.

As FF says, for most cases you can tune x% around stoich. pretty well using a narrowband and some maths.

Wideband will come into its own using exotic fuels and/or special engines, where you want/need to know the real AFR the engine sees. For instance if you were running a high boost pressure turbo, and running over rich to suppress detonation, then with NB you'd just have to start mega rich and keep leaning out, but you'd not really know what AFR you were running, only a good guess. In this situation you couldn't tune to stoich to start with, or you'd melt a piston.

Likewise for some of the exotic lean burn schemes that exist.

Caveat is that the last time I did any serious tuning on an MS, MLV was very new and experimental. It worked, suprisingly well, but not IMHO noticeably better than seat-of-pants plus a bit of thought.

I had some good results with 'Streetdyno' type software for ultimate power tuning, used with a healthy dose of common sense. Like rolling road runs, it doesn't really have to be accurate (unless you just want to brag in the pub), it just has to be repeatable, so you can tell if the changes you just made changed anything and how.

Both are concerned mainly with WOT conditions, useful if you're racing flat out, not so much otherwise. Real world driving, with logging (computer and seat-of-pants) is far more useful to produce a tune that drives nicely.

[lrcounty]

Unless you have psychic abilities I don't see how you can get results anywhere as quickly with NB on a V8 without using practically the cost of a WB in fuel. Happy to be educated though

This is absolutely true. Fuel cost on NB tuning alone is more than the cost of a WB.

I tuned from Nige's original map on NB first, but when the NB sensor died I bought an AEM UEGO then did the same thing with WB from the original Nige map.

What took hours with the NB, was accomplished in about 1 hour worth of driving with the WB.....and it sorted my few problem points at high load. It also allowed me to tune LPG with my new BLOS.

My current "happy place" is running open loop pretty much all the time with the WB sensor removed after tuning. I only put it in every now and then to check that everything is still good.

My AEM UEGO reports exactly the same AF Ratio as TunerStudio.

Cheers

Andre

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

^^

Time and speed to tune I agree with

HOWEVER FFS DO NOT TAKE YORU WB 'off road' and dunk in ice cold lakes = expensive death of WB WILL occur

Erm, do not ask me how I know this

Nige

[AncientGeek]

I use 14point7's SLC eval kit. No problems.

He's got a new one called Spartan or something thats compact and looks very good value.

A big help when tuning for economy cruising.

[FridgeFreezer]

Fuel cost is only a factor if you're making special trips to tune it, I did most of my tuning by throwing the laptop on the passenger seat when going out in the truck and leaving it logging, then spending a minute or two at the other end to pause, run MLVV, update the map, tweak the bits it misses (around idle it doesn't manage much) and save to ECU (and backup to laptop).

It's easy to forget just how "finger in the air" all this was back when a 4-barrel carb was the thing to have, worrying about being +/-5% seems like nitpicking by comparison!

[Simon says]

I am using MS2 and an Innovate LM2 WB kit on the RV8 int Serp for tuning but generally run open loop now my VE table is so well soughted (no cat) paid for TS and MLV

[mikec]

I'm just about to get a wb setup, I've read good and bad things about the lc-1 but it seems to be the only kit that will enable data logging too. Also the aem Uego comes recommended, as does the mtx for its ease of installation any more opinions on this?

[Dave W]

Having tried both WB and NB setups and tuning from scratch, I've come to the conclusion that for normal use NB is fine. If you use TunerStudio and pay for the registered version you can use the live tuning with NB and get the thing tuned in very quickly.

LC1 is OK when it works... it's a bit hit and miss though. I installed 4 of them a couple of years back on different vehicles with similar engines. 1 of them worked really well, gave steady, consistent results and made tuning a breeze. 2 of them gave erratic results that meant, at best, you could only guess what it was trying to tell you with the reading fluctuating constantly. The 4th (and last one I fitted) simply read wrongly all the time showing the wrong values and screwing up the tuning. So, out of the 4, 3 of them were "binned" and replaced with NB sensors that did a better job. A waste of money, time and effort and since I stopped recommending them I've not missed them.

I don't see what the advantage of "data logging" is on a box that only sees a single aspect of the engine when you're hooked up to an ECU that can log everything and there is software available to not only analyse the log but to fix it for you as you drive.

[mikec]

Should of said its for setting up my carb, not got as far as ms yet.

[Mr Noisy]

I am using LC1 because it seemed the most popular and the cheapest option too probably.

Paid £137 second hand off eBay i think with a digital gauge also.

It works just fine for me, the signal earth and heater earth are earthed to the ECU board as instructed by Innovate.

Regards your carb, I think it will take some time to do because isn't carb tuning usually more seat of pants??

Anyway good luck with it, I haven't tried the datalog facility on innovate software but does/can it take any more engine inputs? Rpm etc?