61a Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Has anyone tried running their diesel on bio diesel? One of my local garages is selling it for 99.9 /litre compared to the average round here of 107.9/litre. I usually stick to BP as the old bus sounds a bit quieter and gives more mpg but at nearly 10p a litre ,or nearly three pints of beer on a tankfull, I am considering giving it a go. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilF Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 If you are referring to bio-diesel as the product of vegetable oil trans-esterified by sodium or potassium methoxide, my understanding is that any diesel engine will run on it without modification. I made a few test batches and put it through my old Musso, but that old Mercedes engine would run on anything. I had considered an Elsbett conversion for straight vegetable oil (SVO) (single tank for the Merc although it could probably get away without the conversion, at least in the summer, but dual tanks for the Disco), but I don't do enough miles to make it worthwhile. When I get time (and a suitable reaction vessel), I might have another crack at it, preferably from waste vegetable oil (WVO) though I'm sure Herself would have something to say about the 'frying food' smells coming from the garage....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watson Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 hi we run our cars on old chip oil thats been cleaned its about 80p a litre it works well in the summer but you have mix it with standard in the winter <_< watson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61a Posted January 1, 2008 Author Share Posted January 1, 2008 Sorry I should have been a bit clearer. The diesel is a 50/50 blend of standard fossil diesel and bio fuel, I would imagine from the advertising poster its probably rape seed oil. According to the guy behind the counter they are selling it as fast as they can get it delivered. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 in an older 2.5,2.5td,200tdi,300.tdi there shouldn't be a problem but it the weather turns cold i'd go back to white diesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilF Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 Sorry I should have been a bit clearer. The diesel is a 50/50 blend of standard fossil diesel and bio fuel, I would imagine from the advertising poster its probably rape seed oil. According to the guy behind the counter they are selling it as fast as they can get it delivered. Jules But is that 'bio fuel' just rape seed oil or is it biodiesel produced from rape seed oil? One problem I have with using WVO, is the cleaning required; you can filter solid particles, and can evaporate the water content, but there are likely to be acidic products which some claim to have detrimental effects on the engine over time. If I was using WVO, I would definitely go the methoxide transesterification route. But also 80p per litre for WVO is very expensive; buy fresh rape seed oil from Lidl cheaper than that. I have heard that over here in Ireland, WVO runs at about 18c per litre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 If you're switching to biodiesel or thinking of running it there are a few things to think about: 1. Biodiesel comes in a few concentrations B100 being 100% biodiesel; B20 is 20% biodiesel - you get the idea. The higher concentrations like B50 and up - have 'cleansing' properties...it will clean out all the deposits in your fuel system (tank, fuel lines, filter, sedimenter, etc.). So carry a couple extra filters around for just-in-case moment where your filters get clogged with petro-diesel deposits. 2. In addition to the cleansing properties, biodiesel in higer concentrations will eat away natural rubber components in your fuel system. It doesn't happen quickly, but after a few months you can feel the natural rubber fuel lines getting soft. The next stage is that they start getting weepy. It is best to replace any natural rubber fuel components with a biodiesel compatible fluoroelastomer (Viton is supposed to be the best - also the most expensive). I havn't run any higher concentrations of biodiesel in my rig yet I keep it between B5 and B20. I think it would be pretty easy to replace the fuel supply lines and return/spill lines. Not to hijack the thread, but the part I'm not sure about is the internals of the Bosch Injection Pump. Are there any natural rubber components in that? Seals, o-rings? What about the diesel injectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 I just replaced the fuel spill lines on my 300Tdi this weekend, with a much heavier rubber fuel hose. the old ones had started to break up.. same thing happened on my old 300Tdi defender, they started to leak before i knew there was a problem.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilF Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 If you're switching to biodiesel or thinking of running it there are a few things to think about:1. Biodiesel comes in a few concentrations B100 being 100% biodiesel; B20 is 20% biodiesel - you get the idea. The higher concentrations like B50 and up - have 'cleansing' properties...it will clean out all the deposits in your fuel system (tank, fuel lines, filter, sedimenter, etc.). So carry a couple extra filters around for just-in-case moment where your filters get clogged with petro-diesel deposits. 2. In addition to the cleansing properties, biodiesel in higer concentrations will eat away natural rubber components in your fuel system. It doesn't happen quickly, but after a few months you can feel the natural rubber fuel lines getting soft. The next stage is that they start getting weepy. It is best to replace any natural rubber fuel components with a biodiesel compatible fluoroelastomer (Viton is supposed to be the best - also the most expensive). I havn't run any higher concentrations of biodiesel in my rig yet I keep it between B5 and B20. I think it would be pretty easy to replace the fuel supply lines and return/spill lines. Not to hijack the thread, but the part I'm not sure about is the internals of the Bosch Injection Pump. Are there any natural rubber components in that? Seals, o-rings? What about the diesel injectors? There is apparently a lot of misinformation originating from Big Oil, most of which is a red herring. This was on the Journey to Forever site "As a commercial producer I used to tell my clients: Any European car maker's product after 1996 is 100% biodiesel-proof, as countries like France are already mixing 5% biodiesel in their standard diesel fuel sold at the pump, and in the Czech Republic it is 30% in the 'Bio-Naphta' that is also sold to anyone at the pump, and none of those car makers wants to get a bad name that his brand car failed in those important markets."And by the way, Nissan Austria just approved its Primera for 100% biodiesel, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comical Engineer Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 There is apparently a lot of misinformation originating from Big Oil, most of which is a red herring. This was on the Journey to Forever site NeilF is quite right. My previous car was a Saab 3.0tid. Saab also make bio-fuel powered cars. The main difference is that all of the rubber seals and hoses are replaced with a different spec. So, if you buy a Saab "Biopower" it can run on petrol or biofuel but the standard car will leak like a sieve if you run it on biofuel. Trust me, it's a lot more difficult changing all the hoses and seals on a Saab than it is on any Landie..... The Saab diesel was supposed to run on biodiesel without any problems although it was rated only to 25% biofuel officially. On the Saab, there were seals within the fuel pump that are not user-serviceable. There were also some stories about lubrication of the fuel pump, although I think that these mainly applied to petrol engines. IIRC, here is no problem with the Landie 200/300tdi engines with biodiesel, other than the hose issues mentioned above. Certainly, the engine itself will run quite happily on almost anything! It tends to be the more modern electronically controlled everything engines that get upset easily, mainly due to the tuning of their engine sensors. I have some experience with emissions testing of new cars and they do it in a controlled atmosphere (temp, humidity etc). In the building where they do the emissions testing, they're not even allowed to put petrol in a car in the same room because it upsets the emissions test due to the few ppm of additional hydrocarbons being drawn into the air intake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61a Posted January 2, 2008 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 It would appear that this cheaper fuel could end up costing a bit more in the long run if it starts eating the rubber components. As I am not a mileage user I think I will stick to old fashioned fuel for the moment especially as I want to keep the Disco going for a good few years yet. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoStu Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I usually run on a veg oil/diesel mix. Generally 60%+ veg oil. I've done this for about 8 months (10,000 miles) with no ill effects. Due to the cold weather im back to pure diesel, it wouldnt start twice in december. Just gotta wait for spring now.... Regarding biodiesel, I bought a tankful from a place near the docks in Liverpool (legitimately!), I found it awful. My motor is happy between 75-80mph on the motorway but I couldn't even pass 65mph on bio. In the end I got around 400 miles from that tank due to putting my foot further down so what I saved at 78p per litre I lost in economy, I usually get 480-500 miles on a tank, more if its a big run. Stu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Do a search on biodiesel in the International Forum and you'll find out all about my recent experiences (along with a few other peoples - good and bad). I had major problems back before christmas with waxing, which seems to have been a combination of running on biodiesel in cold weather and a dodgy batch of biodiesel. Even once fairly well diluted with 5% petrol and then quite a lot of mineral diesel it was still causing serious waxing problems - I could get about 30 miles on a fuel filter, ending up with me having to buy four jerry cans and siphon the tank, wiping out all the money I'd saved up to that point. After the hassle and expense it's caused me recently I won't be going near the stuff again, but if you are going to try it, I'd agree with those above, run low percentages mixed with mineral diesel at this time of year. Lay in some spare fuel filters first (and carry at least one, even after you're sure that you've flushed all the mineral diesel deposits out of your tank and fuel lines). Don't use it in a vehicle you have to rely on - there are no standards for biodiesel and the quality varies. Get a bad batch and you could be off the road for days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRX Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Running 60/40 diesel/WVO at the moment and it can be a bit sluggish on start but once its pulled through a bit of warm fuel its fine. need to replace the injectors tho and the spill lines as one has started to weep a bit after a long run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I've been using proper biodiesel bought from a place local to me, mixed with about 30% mineral diesel it has been fine... I was running up to 50-50 SVO but have had trouble starting it when really cold so have been avoiding it (or only running about 10%) lately. I wouldn't run with 100% bio in this weather, you'd be a lot better off mixing 50-50 with mineral diesel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I've been using proper biodiesel bought from a place local to me, mixed with about 30% mineral diesel it has been fine... I was running at most B70 by the time I gave up and siphoned the tank, and still only getting about 30miles out of a fuel filter before it waxed up, so that isn't going to be dilute enough to keep you going if you get a dodgy batch (although possibly nothing is - it'll just take longer to block the filter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Geoff, I reckon you must have had a batch of really nasty stuff as mine is running very well at the current temps on 30-70 Bio/diesel mix... Just out of interest, did you clean out the fuel sedimentor inside your rear wheel arch? (its inside the chassis rail and quite difficult to spot unless you are looking for it) I cleaned mine out on Sunday to find it almost completely full of beige slime and other crudd.. since cleaning it out, and changing the exhaust down pipe for a straight through (no particle filter) the truck is running realy well.... Next job is new injectors and glow plugs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61a Posted January 3, 2008 Author Share Posted January 3, 2008 It would appear that this bio diesel could well present more problems than its worth. After reading through a few of the other forum articles it would appear to be a bit of a lottery as to whether it works well or not. I certainly don't relish the thought bunging up the fuel filter on a regular basis just for the sake of trying to save a few quid. Its a bit of a shame though as I've just seen that a garage a t Lewes has now put its prices up to 113.9/litre so you can bet your life the others round here will soon follow the trend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Just out of interest, did you clean out the fuel sedimentor inside your rear wheel arch? Mine doesn't have a fuel sedimentor - the base is there for it (albeit rather corroded), but it's not connected up and has no bowl fitted. So far as I know it has never been connected - my parents had the truck from new so I guess it was built that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 My brother in law was using B100 in his show truck(Ford A series), he has stopped using it and gone back to dino as the fuel consumption went well up combined with a significant reduction in performance & poorer starting. The increase in consumption was enough to actually make it more expensive in use per mile than dino. This was summer time so there was no waxing/jelling causing issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilF Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 My brother in law was using B100 in his show truck(Ford A series), he has stopped using it and gone back to dino as the fuel consumption went well up combined with a significant reduction in performance & poorer starting. The increase in consumption was enough to actually make it more expensive in use per mile than dino. This was summer time so there was no waxing/jelling causing issues. From what I read, there seems to be significant differences in quality between even commercially produced biodiesel, some of which is very bad indeed. A simple test for quality is to mix equal volumes of biodiesel with water in a jar and give it a good shake. The two layers should separate quite quickly, leaving a cloudy but separate diesel layer and a very slightly milky water layer. If you get a thick band in between which doesn't separate, or even worse, a thick emulsion, you know you will have problems, either due to formation of soaps, incomplete transesterification, or insufficient washing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I have moved this to the International forum since it is now more of a general interest thread than just for Discoverys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilF Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I thought that I might add that there is a European Standard for Biodiesel: EN 14214, even though there is (unlike much of the rest of Europe) no national UK or Ireland national standards. You can always ask your supplier if his biodiesel is up to EN 14214 spec, and if he doesn't know (or care) you can always do your own quick and dirty water mix test as described above. Another quick and dirty test you can do yourself is the methanol test - mix your sample of biodiesel at about 10% with methanol - it should almost be fully dissolved. If you have a phase at the bottom, this is where the impurities are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Add: check your oil levels regularly any increase and a change is required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 On a related topic, to save a new thread... Does anyone know where i can buy bulk Rape seed oil, in 205 litre drums??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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