Very creaky clutch

[Peaklander]

It's probably a blessing to have found this now but I'd rather not have done. Had a 560 mile trip last week, visiting friends in south and west Wales and enjoying the weather along the coast, camping, walking etc. etc. Primary purpose was to checkout the vehicle before embarking on a long trip, wandering around Spain for six weeks. All the items that I wanted to check have behaved themselves but an annoying clutch squeak has 'begun'. I assumed it was the pivot in the pedal box or the pedal return spring and have lubed it all, although it was already well lubed.

Once I got underneath and the pedal was operated by my glamorous assistant, it was louder than a loud thing and must be associated with the release arm. This was changed at new chassis time in 2018, using a reinforced arm that I think I bought from xcess4x4. So although I'm not expecting it to punch through, something is amis.

I am getting my head around lifting the engine out to find out why and fix it - rather than have some unexpected failure in the middle of a nice relaxing trip in a few weeks. Lifting the engine out will be a (yet another) first for me.

I have a crane but need to see how high it will lift. It would be helpful if I could avoid removing the A-bar and front panel / radiator as that would make the job quicker.

EDIT: I have already read that I should remove the front. My crane won't get it high enough.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't / don't need to do this as preventive maintenance? I have the time...

Edited March 28, 2022 by Peaklander

[western]

Have you lubricated the pedal assist spring in the cab, mine used to creak/squeak some lube on it stopped the noise. 

[Peaklander]

21 minutes ago, western said:

Have you lubricated the pedal assist spring 8n the cab

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

I assumed it was the pivot in the pedal box or the pedal return spring and have lubed it all, although it was already well lubed.

Yes Ralph, it was hoping it was that. I checked from the footwell and then in the top of the pedal box. It's definitely inside the bellhousing - very loud if you are underneath when the pedal is operated.

Also I have been experiencing a slight clutch judder but was managing to ignore it.

[cackshifter]

Brittanica Restorations have an improved pivot link. You probably won't need to lift the engine very high to get at the arm, just pull it forward into the space where the radiator normally is. It isn't very hard to get the engine out anyway , and a lot of the work is done from above   

[cackshifter]

It's going to be quite hard to diagnose, as once it's apart you can't just press the pedal. I'd make darn sure it isn't something you can get at before taking the engine out, but if there is juddering maybe there is some oil or clutch fluid around. Anything dropping out of the weep hole at the bottom of the bellhousing?

[western]

Not much left to examine or lubricate then, only bits in the bell housing is the fork ball joint & it's socket in the arm. 

[Peaklander]

1 hour ago, cackshifter said:

Anything dropping out of the weep hole at the bottom of the bellhousing

I had kept the wading plug in otherwise I wouldn’t have noticed this. There’s no discernible fluid loss but there is a tiny amount on the plug.

Also the noise is definitely from the bell housing. 📢

Cause and effect? I’m not sure but I think I’m going to take a look.

 

 

 

[muddy]

pull the slave out and squirt some grease/oil on the end of the push rod. Worth a try to save pulling big lumps. I personally find it much quicker to drop the gearbox than start pulling engines but each the their own and that im sure you find as many for and against each method.

[miketomcat]

Last time I did this I moved the gearbox and tbox back enough on jack's etc to get my hand in there. The creak you discribe sounds like the arm to ball, so yeah your going to have to get in there.

Mike

[Peaklander]

26 minutes ago, muddy said:

pull the slave out and squirt some grease/oil on the end of the push rod

Yes I wondered about that. Obviously I want to be sure that I fix it properly but it's worth a try if it removes the squeak and the judder. Perhaps that's job #1.

 

13 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

Last time I did this I moved the gearbox and tbox back enough on jack's etc to get my hand in there

At least I know the underside as I have had the transfer box off recently. To be honest I found that quite a struggle. I presume the tunnel needs to come off. What about sliding back to the crossmember - is there space without removing it? It was tight to fit it originally and I needed to spread the chassis. I don't fancy doing that again.

[muddy]

yes seat box lid off, tunnel out, I have slid them back on the crossmember before today. Obviously if you have lots of matting, wiring and a small DJ setup fastened to the seatbox then pulling the engine is possibly less work as long as you can easily access all the bell housing bolts.

[Peaklander]

Had a look underneath and pulled the slave. I am charging-up an old phone that I use with a camera-scope just to see what I can see. The slave is weeping a very tiny bit but it's not enough to spoil anything. Maybe the push rod joint in the clip is dry and I will squirt something in there. However the creak is at a lower frequency than I think would be made by it. It sounds as though it's coming off a bigger lump of metal.

Moving the gearbox back is doable but I have a cubby and heater above (which I have only just refitted after the tbox overhaul). If I lift the engine then at least I can have a walk around it.

If it is the push rod, then life will be simpler. Other duties call and I need to postpone until this afternoon.

[cackshifter]

That schmoo on the wading plug could have come from the slave; that would be good news if so - well OK it wouldn't but it's the easiest fix.

 

[Peaklander]

It’s definitely brake fluid, so yes I will replace it anyway.

[Peaklander]

The camera-scope was only useful enough to show that I could get a bit of oil on the clip and end of the push rod but it made no difference.

I have decided to lift the engine out. I can't face lying on my back to do the gearbox slide method. I have had a pleasant afternoon standing up, going through the steady disconnections and I am left with just the top bellhousing bolts and the engine mounts.

What I had thought was a leaky o-ring on the power steering pump union, appears to be a leaky pump - so I need to do some research into repairing or replacing that.

Also, as I removed the lower bellhousing bolts and the gap to the flywheel housing opened a touch, clutch fluid began to drip onto me. I know that there hasn't been a discernible  loss of fluid but the slave must have started to leak in the past few days. I will look into re-sealing it, rather than just replacing. I presume that's a very straightforward job.

I will probably rely on the transfer box mounts (and the propshafts as steadies) when I lift the engine. After it's out I need to push the vehicle back out of the garage - it will be half in for the lift.  

 

[Peaklander]

Getting the engine out wasn't difficult except for dealing with the engine mounts. Also the two bulkhead nuts at about 9 and 3 o'clock were a but of a stretch. I removed the nuts top and bottom from the engine mounts, left just the top few bulkhead nuts and tried to lift the engine. The intention was to lift it by tilting (with the gearbox / transfer still on its mounts) high enough for the studs to clear. I guess I was then going to pull it forward off the gearbox input shaft.

I either didn't have the b^55%s to lift it, worried that I was straining something, or that method doesn't work. I instead removed the entire mounting support brackets. This is quite easy, four bolts at the side and two against the flywheel housing. After that the engine was happy to slide forward and out.

Mike on Brittanica says to remove the studs with the 'double nut' method but I can't see how this can be done before extraction. There's no access with spanners to tighten them against each other. Even at re-installation I don't know if the nuts could be released after.

How have you people done this?

 

 

 

There's a curious mix in the bellhousing. White crystals, some brake fluid (very sharp on the tongue) and a little heavier oil. I didn't find anything obviously bad around the release arm except that the ball is dry, with just a trace of copper slip there. I can see that I should have used lithium grease to lube this area but didn't (at chassis change in 2018). 

At the clutch there is a little rust and I wonder if this is from the tiny water leak that I had at the back of the head on the heater pipe spigot. It has tracked onto the pressure plate but my inexperience is such that I can't tell if it might have been the problem.  I removed the pressure plate and the flywheel and friction plate look to be good.

There's no sign of engine oil and so I won't touch the rear crankshaft seal.

 

 

 

 

 

I had already moved to the HD arm but that is 'just' thicker metal. I was interested to read about Brittanica Mike's release arm bush design ( thanks @cackshifter). Is this a common upgrade?

So what to do?

1. Get a seal kit for my AP slave cylinder.

2. Think about replacing or re-sealing the master cylinder too

3. Maybe fit a new R380 input shaft seal

4. Get a gasket or whatever I need for the power steering pump

4. Use Lithium grease at refit - I have white ceramic grease  - maybe that's the correct stuff

 

[cackshifter]

I think licking the bellhousing is a bit extreme  I'd just wipe it out. I'm guessing the ball was the problem, maybe moly grease would be better than straight lithium but more would be good. If you put it back, do up some of the bellhousing bolts and fit the slave you could try it out before committing to refitting. Perhaps a smear of something on the spigot  and splines too?

[Peaklander]

58 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

do up some of the bellhousing bolts and fit the slave you could try it out before committing to refitting.

I can't work out what you mean, sorry. Can you explain more -  bellhousing bolts? / and how can I get something for the arm to push against?

[cackshifter]

I was thinking if you could just put the clutch on and put the engine back in position, just a few bolts to hold it to the bellhousing and attach the slave cylinder, IE do the least possible , having greased the pivots etc,it could still be dangling from the crane, but you could prove the creak had gone. Or not. Otherwise the creak may be from within the pressure plate say, as you said earlier, hard to tell. You need to determine the cause really, but it's hard to tell when apart.

[Peaklander]

Ah yes Ok, understand that. I must be slowing down with old age. I would have preferred to find an obvious cause but that would be a good approach. I have moly grease so can use that. I just need to get a seal kit or new slave. I'd rather just get a kit as it's only one seal and it's an AP cylinder so should be good.

[92a]

I’ve got one of Brittanica restoration”s clutch forks in my LT77 and it seems good quality and well designed , I only do 5k miles a year so I am expecting it to last for a long time , 

[Peaklander]

I like the look of it but the estimated delivery date is two weeks hence. I know it will probably be quicker but I can't wait that long.

[Maverik]

I've removed plenty of 300tdi's from discovery's but never a Defender, what I usually do it drop the PAS box off the chassis rail so it dips out the way, you dont have to fully remove it, then you have to use a pry bar to gently bend out the engine mount protector tangs just a wee bit, then you lift the engine as high as you can pop the mounts out then lower and extract. - on a disco you need to get it a bit lower to be able to undo the bellhousing bolts on the top.

[Peaklander]

I think my 'problem' was that as I started to lift it, it seemed reluctant to move. I presumed this was the gearbox and Tbox resisting movement upwards. On reflection it was probably just the weight. I have only lifted it once before, off and on a bare chassis and I don't recall it feeling heavy - but it was heavy yesterday.

Mike at Brittanica replied quickly to a YouTube comment I made, advising to wind the studs out now, making it easier to slide it back. Once engaged and with a few fastenings back to the gearbox, lift it up to put the studs back in.

Yes I did swing the PAS pump away to the side but then took it off as I decided to clean it and look at fitting a new gasket. It has been leaking and I had already replaced an O-ring on the hp pipe off it but the gunge was behind the pulley so I don't know if there's another leak or not.

[Peaklander]

I had a great help and would like to thank @92a for sending me a spare 'bush kit' as supplied by Mike at Brittanica and a standard fork. The modification really does look like an improvement. I hadn't wanted to wait for one to come in the post from Canada, as I need to get the vehicle back on the road quickly. So it was great to receive the parts in a couple of days and I was able to fit the bush at the weekend.

I don't have a hole saw of the correct size and I was intending to go and buy one in Sheffield the next day but made a request on a village fb group and a guy at a local company offered to drill it for me on Saturday morning. I modified the standard fork rather than my HD one, purely to save on drilling as the HD, with the reinforcing plate at the pivot point, is much thicker.

I checked with Ben at Clutchfix about the thickness of the friction plate, (8.3mm) which is virtually no wear since fitting in 2018 and looked as critically as I could around the pressure / cover plate assembly and flywheel, deciding that there was nothing to cause any worries or the juddering and creak. I decided that it was caused by lack of lubrication on the splines of the gearbox input shaft and the release arm pivot. The only place that had enough grease was the slave cylinder pushrod / clip and the pedal box.

Finally I aligned the pressure plate using an extension with tape wrapped around the end for a snug fit in the spigot bush and got it the correct way round.

 

 

The refit was very easy and with a second pair of hands the engine slotted up to the gearbox at the first attempt. I fastened the nuts at the top, ready for a test of the pivot.

However I had already decided to reseal the slave cylinder because of the weeping that started when we were trying to find the creak a few days earlier. So before testing the fork, I cleaned it and fitted the seal. The kit only has the piston and cover seal so it isn't a big job but it does have consequences.

Upon refitting i didn't notice how tight the pushrod is in the new end cover - more on this later.

It bleed but not particularly easily and the all-new fluid came out black so that indicated a problem in the master cylinder too. However a good pedal was available and the creak was no more.

So I got an overhaul kit for the master and then went to drain it by disconnecting the flexi at the slave, to realise that this can't be done without either breaking the joint higher-up or removing the slave so it can spin around. What could possibly go wrong removing the slave? i was on a roll, the engine had gone in easily, the slave was fine so confidently I pulled back on the cylinder and without enough light underneath to notice, the drag on the pushrod from the new end seal, pulled it out of the clutch fork clip.

This was a moment when lack of experience shows - I was careless and not only that, with a quick google, I discovered that I could have secured the clip to prevent this happening.

However the crane was still connected and it was only a few minutes before the engine was moved forward enough to get at the arm and I tie-wraped the clip.

 

The vehicle was half-in the garage and I was supposed to be going to my Dad's 95th birthday party but this time the engine wouldn't go back. Try as I might, more and more frantically, I couldn't do it in the short time available. So I lifted it out, onto the floor, pushed the truck out and shut the garage door, rushing off to more important things!

On Monday morning I overhauled the master cylinder. This is a bit more involved and fiddly the first time you do it.

The seal at the end of the valve stem is tiny...

 

Main cylinder seal is easier. As I have a Girling master and AP slave I thought that this was a better approach than simply buying new.

It was soon back together and the pedal box refitted with rtv as a seal. At the first attempt the engine lifted in and slotted-up. The hydraulics bled very easily and all seems good.