Big Brake kits

[uninformed]

Hey all,

 

has anyone fitted a Front Big Brake kit? Alcon, AP, LOF etc? I’m looking for feedback and information 

 

cheers. 

[uninformed]

What is very frustrating is trying to get information from these companies. Other than Luke from LOF , who is being very helpful, it’s like getting blood from a stone.

If I’m going to spend 1500-2000 pounds on a simple brake kit I think it reasonable to be able to tell me something as simple as piston diameter…

[mickeyw]

I've not been through all your other posts to see what your vehicle and engine configuration is, but I am wondering why the need for big brakes. I have always found correctly maintained standard LR brakes to be perfectly acceptable, unless perhaps you have a high powered engine and high speed rated tyres to suit.

How have you approached the companies you mention? Unless you are talking to a handling/performance specialist that has done some homework, you're likely dealing with box pushers that don't have access to the details you're asking for. If you've gone direct to the manufacturer's tech sales it's possible they don't want to deal with private individuals. It sounds like Luke has taken the time to work out what's what, and what works for a certain application. He is after all looking to sell to us private individuals, and will be pricing his offerings to take product development time and sales advice into account.

[uninformed]

Why is it only higher HP engines that get the nod for a upgrade, bigger tyres and heavier rims will contribute to less efficient braking just as much. My build will have more power, bigger tyres, heavier rims, higher kerb weight etc.

LRs brake ok but its not great by todays standards, especially pedal pressure to lock up, and yes, my system was fine.

Box pushers lol, how many box pushes are selling 2k brake kits for one end, and if they are, its not hard to know something like piston size or go measure one on the shelf. Im starting to suspect they have smaller pistons.... not a great selling point. So far ive contacted 3 companies that have developed their kit. Alcon are by Britpart, but still....

[cackshifter]

I have wondered if the ABS system double servo or Discover 1  servo would give a bit more 'bite' I have just replaced all seals, fitted new LOF pads, and also a very recent new vacuum pump. Brakes are OK, and will lock wheels, but to me lack 'bite', check braking is fine but heavier braking needs much more of a push.

[Nonimouse]

Fulcrum Suspensions were selling upgraded stopper a while back, through their SuperPro brand. Their Tech support is easy to speak to - even form the other side of the world!

[uninformed]

6 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Fulcrum Suspensions were selling upgraded stopper a while back, through their SuperPro brand. Their Tech support is easy to speak to - even form the other side of the world!

I wonder if you are referring to the Bendix Ultimate 4wd brake upgrade kits, which they only cover modern popular vehicles here (not LRs). And even then they were only rotors, pads and fluid. 

[FridgeFreezer]

I've always found mechanical grip is the limiting factor TBH, unless you're running pure road tyres.

The 109 has sort-of big brakes in that is has a conversion built from Wilwood parts - 320mm discs, decent sized callipers, EBC greenstuff pads because they're cheaper than Wilwoods...  that has way more brakes than grip on 37's and is pretty sharp. Mouse had the exact same conversion and that had ~450hp and 40" boggers and stopped about as quickly as you ever can with cut boggers

Limiting factor is rims - if you're on 16" rims there's only so much disc & calliper you can get behind them.

2 hours ago, uninformed said:

My build will have more power, bigger tyres, heavier rims, higher kerb weight etc.

I think you may be getting ahead of yourself - personally I'd finish it and see how you find the brakes before spending loads on special bits.

[Mossberg]

Just a question on stronger brakes. Is there a point where the brakes can be too strong?

I presume braking is the whole package- pedal, master cylinder,  calipers & pads, tyres and road surface. I presume the weakest link will de the failure point in any scenario, but control of the whole system will be the key to effective braking. 

So, will brakes that have too much bite be detrimental to overall effectiveness of the whole system? I presume this is why abs brakes were developed, to counteract the loss of braking as wheels lock and loose grip.

I have lots to learn and I am enjoying my education  ☺ 

[Nonimouse]

3 hours ago, uninformed said:

I wonder if you are referring to the Bendix Ultimate 4wd brake upgrade kits, which they only cover modern popular vehicles here (not LRs). And even then they were only rotors, pads and fluid. 

probably. Gave excellent improvement on the existing caliper set up...but that was a 110, which has pitiful braking due to over heating on the front. The rear drums were excellent

I fail to see the issues really - but then I do maintain my brakes well

[smallfry]

7 hours ago, uninformed said:

I wonder if you are referring to the Bendix Ultimate 4wd brake upgrade kits, which they only cover modern popular vehicles here (not LRs). And even then they were only rotors, pads and fluid. 

Have you tried Hoppers Stoppers in Melbourne ? I know they do custom stuff, but might be able to help.

I fitted Turbo coupe model brakes to my Vauxhall (Holden) Astra diesel, because I did a lot of towing, and it really does stop well, so much better than before, with no lock up in normal conditions. It does have ABS though. 

I like big brakes !

[uninformed]

20 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

probably. Gave excellent improvement on the existing caliper set up...but that was a 110, which has pitiful braking due to over heating on the front. The rear drums were excellent

I fail to see the issues really - but then I do maintain my brakes well

Couldn't have been the Bendix Ultimate upgrade as they don't make stuff for LRs. But basically you put new rotors and pads in, and there are many good rotor and pad options but they  wont transform the brakes into something different. The only place i'll ever run a drum is on the T/case. 

and I love your last comment 🤣 ... 

 

[uninformed]

22 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I've always found mechanical grip is the limiting factor TBH, unless you're running pure road tyres.

The 109 has sort-of big brakes in that is has a conversion built from Wilwood parts - 320mm discs, decent sized callipers, EBC greenstuff pads because they're cheaper than Wilwoods...  that has way more brakes than grip on 37's and is pretty sharp. Mouse had the exact same conversion and that had ~450hp and 40" boggers and stopped about as quickly as you ever can with cut boggers

Limiting factor is rims - if you're on 16" rims there's only so much disc & calliper you can get behind them.

I think you may be getting ahead of yourself - personally I'd finish it and see how you find the brakes before spending loads on special bits.

While your tyres are bigger and heavier, the tread and compound will be the limiting factor. I'll be running road legal radials (either BFG MT KM3 or TOYO Open Country MT). Id be interested to know the piston size in your calipers, The digging I did of an American LR Big Brake Kit, fitted with Wilwoods, has me thinking they are smaller than 46mm, but they are on a 330mm rotor so that and bigger pad area would help.

 

As for getting ahead of myself, I daily drove my 110 for over 15 years, work vehicle during the week, everything else outside of that. I had good vacuum with the HS 2.8 Alternator pump, replaced MC and booster and calipers completely rebuilt, it was ok but like everything else I see room for improvement. I can tell you it doesnt  stop like my BT50 and that is heavier. 

[uninformed]

15 hours ago, smallfry said:

Have you tried Hoppers Stoppers in Melbourne ? I know they do custom stuff, but might be able to help.

I fitted Turbo coupe model brakes to my Vauxhall (Holden) Astra diesel, because I did a lot of towing, and it really does stop well, so much better than before, with no lock up in normal conditions. It does have ABS though. 

I like big brakes !

As you know there is little support outside a few specialists for LR here and a one off custom set might be more expensive and require more problem solving. Ill give them a look though. Im guessing your upgrade was bolt on from the same car but different version?

Id like to hope these big dollar brake kits have been developed with the factory booster and MC. but who knows, and why Im asking for feedback and information on them.

[Nonimouse]

38 minutes ago, uninformed said:

Couldn't have been the Bendix Ultimate upgrade as they don't make stuff for LRs. But basically you put new rotors and pads in, and there are many good rotor and pad options but they  wont transform the brakes into something different. The only place i'll ever run a drum is on the T/case. 

and I love your last comment 🤣 ... 

 

They didn't do the drums - I was using standard drums, with delphi shoes. A really good set up...  The discs were vented, drilled and grooved (all a bit ott to be honest) 

The bit about maintenance was a genuine point. So many people moan about brake performance but it's generally poor maintenance or missuse.

I'm lost as to how much weight you are adding and what size tyres you are running, so as to need such upgrades - unless you are looking at on road circuit speed events

[smallfry]

7 hours ago, uninformed said:

As you know there is little support outside a few specialists for LR here and a one off custom set might be more expensive and require more problem solving. Ill give them a look though. Im guessing your upgrade was bolt on from the same car but different version?

Id like to hope these big dollar brake kits have been developed with the factory booster and MC. but who knows, and why Im asking for feedback and information on them.

Yes, standard stuff from the most powerful model, but with Greenstuff uprated pads and drilled and grooved discs front and rear. This model had bigger diameter rims with lower profile tyres, which I don't like, and I was told they couldnt be used with the rims I have, but they fit, just. However, to fit new pads, I have to shave 1.5mm them, or the calipers foul the rims. Been on for nine years now.

I must admit that I like my brake upgrades to be low cost, going through catalogues for standard parts that can be utilised.

My ex bosses son is into BMWs, and he has fitted several sets of six pot calipers and huge discs, but I do not recall any changes being made to the MC or servo (booster) on any of them. I think they are mainly to combat brake fade.

If all else fails, there is always Hydraboost !  

[FridgeFreezer]

On 4/5/2022 at 1:01 PM, uninformed said:

Id be interested to know the piston size in your calipers, The digging I did of an American LR Big Brake Kit, fitted with Wilwoods, has me thinking they are smaller than 46mm, but they are on a 330mm rotor so that and bigger pad area would help.

Fronts are Wilwood 120-6816, rears are 120-6810 slightly smaller, discs are 12.19" diameter (309mm) vented because Wilwood don't sell solid discs. As I said before, EBC greenstuff pads just because they're the cheapest ones for Wilwoods.

My tyres are road legal, I've had 9.00x16 Petlas, 255/100R16 Michelin XZL and now 37x1250r16 Creepy Crawlers which have been on for years. They're a bit chunkier than BFG muds but by no means terrible on road given the size & profile.

It's towed serious weight on long trips - one Russia trip had a car full of tools, spares & tents, a tilting twin-axle car trailer with the race car and a "small" Hiab crane on it on the way out, that was maybe 1000 miles straight run at ~6+ tonnes all up, maybe a ton lighter on the journey home, brakes have always been sharp as a pin.

[uninformed]

@FridgeFreezer what MC and booster set up? Thats just as critical. While changing those on factory callipers can yield some more bite, it wont change multiple braking events as a given calliper/pad/rotor can only do so much (heat dissipation)  regardless of line pressure.

Your Wilwoods are just under 46mm at 44.45mm and your rotor just bigger (309mm) than the factory 298.  But I'm not sure about pad area? Could you not have fitted the bigger rotor? And im curous how you mounted them, and to what axle?

 

BTW those XZL are HEAVY!

[uninformed]

On 4/5/2022 at 12:50 AM, Mossberg said:

Just a question on stronger brakes. Is there a point where the brakes can be too strong?

I presume braking is the whole package- pedal, master cylinder,  calipers & pads, tyres and road surface. I presume the weakest link will de the failure point in any scenario, but control of the whole system will be the key to effective braking. 

So, will brakes that have too much bite be detrimental to overall effectiveness of the whole system? I presume this is why abs brakes were developed, to counteract the loss of braking as wheels lock and loose grip.

I have lots to learn and I am enjoying my education  ☺ 

IMO ABS was developed due to the average driver having little experience and skill in emergency situations and the usual stomp on brakes and death grip of steering wheel applies, resulting in little control. Understandable because very few practice emergency stopping (under various conditions) to become relaxed and proficient at it. 

Yes there is a point where too much brake is no point, but not in a 16" wheel on a 2.5t vehicle (physical limitations will be the factor). Next time you are in traffic start looking at the brakes on modern cars, especially the big SUV like Q7 etc. Also note the size relationship between front and rear.

[uninformed]

On 4/6/2022 at 6:10 AM, smallfry said:

 

I must admit that I like my brake upgrades to be low cost, going through catalogues for standard parts that can be utilised.

My ex bosses son is into BMWs, and he has fitted several sets of six pot calipers and huge discs, but I do not recall any changes being made to the MC or servo (booster) on any of them. I think they are mainly to combat brake fade.

If all else fails, there is always Hydraboost !  

My concern with some of these custom BBKs going forward is getting parts.

The relationship between MC/booster and callipers is somewhat crucial. Going to a bigger piston area with no MC change will require more pedal travel (hopefully not run out of travel/stroke)  but the pressure built at the calliper will be more for the same pedal input pressure than if a bigger MC fitted. So a bigger MC will require less pedal travel but more input pressure. Then you can change the booster to give more vacuum assist to lesson the pedal input pressure feel (if that makes sense) 

 

Thats why im trying to get calliper specifications from the suppliers so I can figure if I need to play with MC and booster. 

[Mossberg]

6 hours ago, uninformed said:

IMO ABS was developed due to the average driver having little experience and skill in emergency situations and the usual stomp on brakes and death grip of steering wheel applies, resulting in little control. Understandable because very few practice emergency stopping (under various conditions) to become relaxed and proficient at it. 

Yes there is a point where too much brake is no point, but not in a 16" wheel on a 2.5t vehicle (physical limitations will be the factor). Next time you are in traffic start looking at the brakes on modern cars, especially the big SUV like Q7 etc. Also note the size relationship between front and rear.

I have noticed the size of the brakes on some of the modern high powered cars.  They are certainly big and I am sure they will have a great deal of stopping power with the tyre/road surface/ABS combination. 

Regarding ABS,  I  don't think I would have the skill level to replicate that. To be honest I try to drive to road conditions and avoid the requirement to stomp on the brakes. When I do have to brake hard I tend to curse myself for driving like a d**k, or curse others for their lack of awareness/ignorance. 

I will have a look at the brakes on the big SUVs, but to be honest I never look at them as an off road vehicle,  even though they may be capable. 

[FridgeFreezer]

21 hours ago, uninformed said:

@FridgeFreezer what MC and booster set up? Thats just as critical. While changing those on factory callipers can yield some more bite, it wont change multiple braking events as a given calliper/pad/rotor can only do so much (heat dissipation)  regardless of line pressure.

Your Wilwoods are just under 46mm at 44.45mm and your rotor just bigger (309mm) than the factory 298.  But I'm not sure about pad area? Could you not have fitted the bigger rotor? And im curous how you mounted them, and to what axle?

BTW those XZL are HEAVY!

MC & booster are early 110 type, the narrow one that fits on a Series pedal box with a simple spacer.

Heat dissipation has never been an issue, the discs are all vented anyway and you'd have to be driving like an absolute loon to even begin get the setup hot. I have overheated brakes on a few vehicles over the years and this setup has never even thought about warming up. As you can see, the big lump in the middle means there's no shortage of "go" that needs to be "stopped".

Here's the kit mounted:

Here's how much clearance I didn't have with standard 16" modulars:

 

Here's how much clearance I now have with banded Wolf rims:

 

So no, I am not in a hurry to go any bigger - not least because, as I've said, the brakes are pin sharp, I can easily lock all 4 wheels, and it's never even thought about getting hot even working hard.

Axles are Volvo portals so my mounting will probably not be applicable to your application. The Wolf rims are about 16kg on their own, compared to ~10kg for an alloy or standard steel.

 

On @Mossberg's question about brakes being too strong - yes they can be but it would take an extreme effort to reach that point on a Land Rover, usually the worst problem is over-assistance (or oil leakage) making them very "grabby" which can more easily induce a lockup (esp. off-road). As uninformed says, ABS means the average driver can stamp on the brakes as hard as they like and still maintain (some) control. Honestly it's no bad thing, unless you're being a purist on a track or off-road life is far easier and safer with it on. Even the stig can't replicate modern ABS, its reaction time and control is superhuman - it can detect wheel slip and react within a fraction of a turn of the wheel and keep you pointing wherever you're steering.

[Bowie69]

That's the big thing with ABS IMHO, driving country roads with slushy mud often in the verges, with ABS and a hard brake you stay straight, without you lock the left wheel and spear off toward a rhyne. 

Which is not the best place to be in a car!

[uninformed]

@FridgeFreezer looking at the clearance with your wolf rims is interesting, as a couple of companies are stating their 330mm kits will fit. I cant see how that is possible. Imagine spending 2k and shipping them half way across the planet to find out they dont fit......

[FridgeFreezer]

21 hours ago, uninformed said:

@FridgeFreezer looking at the clearance with your wolf rims is interesting, as a couple of companies are stating their 330mm kits will fit. I cant see how that is possible. Imagine spending 2k and shipping them half way across the planet to find out they dont fit......

It's possible Defender hubs put the disc further inboard giving the extra ~11mm clearance to the rim, although it would be by no means guaranteed - Wolf rims clear my callipers, stock steels & modulars don't, Disco 1 steels do, RR classic alloys do, it's a bit of a lottery.