Late Td5/Early Tdci 110 Station Wagon

[monkie]

I have an issue that is becoming increasingly urgent I need to resolve that I am yet again asking the collective wisdom on here for advice:

I love my 1988 110 and I have done lots on it over the years including engine/gearbox swap, rewiring, etc.. Problem is, now I have 2 kids, I am under increasing pressure to have a vehicle that is more family friendly. Good news is that Mrs B accepts a more modern Defender station wagon can fit the criteria... So,reluctantly I'm looking at trading up my beloved 110 for a newer model where myself, the wife and 2 kids can use for camping trips etc.

I'm looking at late Td5/early Tdci (2.4 puma) 110 stationwagons where the kids can be in the middle row seats and all our camping gear can go in the back/roof rack.

I've not yet got round to going to visit any prospective 110's but I wanted to arm myself with some knowledge first as I have no experience with "newer" Defenders (considering I currently have a 1988 hard top model I largely use to bumble about in on my own or as a van).

• I understand that for everyday driving around a Tdci is a more refined drive in terms of comforts, gearbox etc. Is this true? (I'm not that fussed, but Mrs B is!)
• The rear seats in both models - how easy is it to remove them/put them back in. Do they just clip in and out or is it a spanner job?
• Do 2.4 Tdci models all come with AC or is this an option like on earlier defenders?
• I think I am aware of some of the common Td5 issues (injector harness, early engines with cylinder head creep...) - I'm not sure on common 2.4 Tdci issues to be aware of.
• On balance all things considered I am leaning towards a Tdci - what are the thoughts of those who have experience with both?

I don't think I have unrealistic expectations in that at the end of the day its a Defender. It will be draughty, leak, bumpy ride, odd electrical niggle, times that funny noises that will get me worried. Even if I get a Tdci, it will be a ~14 year old car: I accept all of those points!

[Retroanaconda]

To answer your specific questions:

• Yes they are more refined. They are higher geared, quieter and the later dash offers improved heating/cooling.
• Rear seats will unbolt easily enough from the load area.
• AC was an option, higher spec ones will have it.
• Most of the Tdci-specific issues are to do with the gearbox. The MT82 is not a bad box in itself but it was horribly bodged to fit onto the LT230 with an adaptor shaft that likes to strip it’s splines. The clutch is also a weak point, though better versions are available now. There were some issues with 2.4 oil pumps early on but they should have all been resolved by now, otherwise the engine itself is an okay unit. 
• My preference would be for a late Td5 as I don’t really like the Tdci torque pattern or the drivetrain, I always find them really rough and juddery. I also am not a great fan of the later dash, as good as the blowers are I find it intrudes on the cabin space too much.

My advice would be to have a drive of both and see which you prefer, including a stint on the motorway.

[monkie]

Thank you, that is really helpful advice. I have driven a td5 and I must admit I prefer the sound of 5 cylinder diesels (probably not a sound reason to go and buy one!) 

I am going to view one and I have just realised it is a 2.2Tdci. Are they a better option to the 2.4 tdci? 

[Retroanaconda]

Not sure about better or worse to be honest - I’ve never really noticed any difference with the ones I’ve been involved in. The 2.2s tend to have a DPF so if you do a lot of short journeys that might be worth considering, though to be fair I don’t think they give many problems.

[Jon W]

TD5 with an over drive would be my preference, a lot nicer sounding and smooth engine and dashboard which doesn't get in the way too much. Can get aircon in them as well. 

Also TD5 issues seem to be the easier to rectify where as TDCI issues seem to be more terminal engine failures.

Having said that I haven't got either and drive a 200dti but have driven both and could happily live with either

 

 

[landroversforever]

As James says, have a drive of both. I can't get on with the Puma dash and I don't particularly like the way they drive compared to a Td5. That said the anti-stall is fun to play with! Drive both and have a play with them. Remember that you can always add a bit of refinement to the Td5 if needed. 

Don't be fooled by the 6th gear in the puma either, it's the same ratio as the td5 5th if I remember correctly! 

[monkie]

That's an interesting point to consider in terms of the gears. The Td5 I had a drive of did pull lovely (it had had a stage 1 remap if I remember correctly). I'm keen to have a go in a tdci. I read a nice comparison on here between the 2.4 and 2.2 puma by @Happyoldgitit was a very interesting read. 

[landroversforever]

Just had a quick google... 

0.77:1 R380 5th
0.74:1 MT82 6th

[reb78]

I test drove a new Puma when swmbo considered one. The salesman was quite disappointed when I pointed to my battered looking 200tdi 110 in the car park and said that the puma was no quieter, no quicker, no more comfortable, no better built and simply just no better than what I had arrived in. I was amazed at how little improvement there had been. 
 

Have a think about what would make your 110 what you need. Better the devil you have rebuilt than some unknown IMO Phil. Theres lots you can do to make them more comfy, run better and quieter etc. 

[monkie]

I want something that all the family can get into comfortably, handles long runs with ease, has some more modern creature comforts but has to be a defender. I've enjoyed all the projects I've done on my 110, but feel I've outgrown it, plus I don't have the time and space to convert my 110 (if the body comes off the I should really replace the chassis and rear axle, but I can't stomach that project) so I want to trade up. I feel like I've roughed it for 13 years in my old 110 and now want a more tidy, everyday friendly example.

I almost bought a 2006 Td5 recently but the seller changed their mind and kept it. I then saw some nice tdci 110s for not alot more. I now have my eye on a nice 2012 2.2Tdci that I am going to view. (you never know, I just might not get round to selling my 1988 110 😉) 

[Jon W]

Saw this advertised quite locally to me, which seemed a very tidy example for a fair price. May be worth a look

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1199983840735390/

[monkie]

So, I went on a little diversion to see a 2013 2.2Tdci station wagon. It was an interesting experience. 

In terms of driving it, it was lovely and smooth. Almost felt like a modern car. The doors shut properly (a novelty to those of us who are used to older 90/110s). I liked the puma dash. Lovely comfortable seats, even in the back. Nice paint work, chassis, bulkhead and doors had no corrosion. 

But... No modern comforts that in my view should be a standard fitment on any vehicle after say 2005. Manual windows, no AC. The rear sliding windows really annoyed me. They felt like they would fall out if I slammed the door hard enough. 

I was also surprised to see terrible corrosion (with holes straight through to daylight) in the aluminium where the middle row seats attach (see picture). 

Have say overall I was underwhelmed by it considering the price of over £20k. I'll keep on looking. Maybe a better spec Td5 is more up my street. 

 

[steve b]

Aluminium corrosion get's worse on later models , I suspect a combination of modern paint , the spec. of the aluminium alloy and a dose of value engineering . It seems to start around later 300 Tdi's 

You will need to keep a clear head on this search 

I'd be inclined to consider the upgrades to the one you have ..

Steve 

[monkie]

I ultimately want a defender with a minimum of 7 seat capability, more mod cons (including dials I can see at night!) and a rear axle that isn't on the list of items for attention. I'm either going to keep my 110 (for a bit at least) or use it to partly fund a newer one. 

I did like the 2.2Tdci, I want to try a 2.4, maybe a better spec. I'm in no rush so I am going to view plenty and only buy when I find one I can really picture myself using both on my own as well as with the whole family. 

EDIT: I'm going to look at a 2.4 tdci with AC and electric windows next. Found one local to me. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by monkie

[reb78]

4 hours ago, monkie said:

So, I went on a little diversion to see a 2013 2.2Tdci station wagon. It was an interesting experience. 

In terms of driving it, it was lovely and smooth. Almost felt like a modern car. The doors shut properly (a novelty to those of us who are used to older 90/110s). I liked the puma dash. Lovely comfortable seats, even in the back. Nice paint work, chassis, bulkhead and doors had no corrosion. 

But... No modern comforts that in my view should be a standard fitment on any vehicle after say 2005. Manual windows, no AC. The rear sliding windows really annoyed me. They felt like they would fall out if I slammed the door hard enough. 

I was also surprised to see terrible corrosion (with holes straight through to daylight) in the aluminium where the middle row seats attach (see picture). 

Have say overall I was underwhelmed by it considering the price of over £20k. I'll keep on looking. Maybe a better spec Td5 is more up my street. 

 

I was going to reply earlier with similar comments to what you have found here. 
 

LRs idea of additional creature comforts werent things like cruise control or AC, it was menial things like an extra gap on the ratchet to recline the front seat half a degree further (i made that up but it was this level of thought). 
 

Thats why I set about making my 110 what I wanted. I will add cruise one day. I will never get as far as aircon. 
 

Rust proofing and steel quality was also dire/worse respectively on the later models chassis. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by reb78

[monkie]

14 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I was going to reply earlier with similar comments to what you have found here. 
 

LRs idea of additional creature comforts werent things like cruise control or AC, it was menial things like an extra gap on the ratchet to recline the front seat half a degree further (i made that up but it was this level of thought). 
 

Thats why I set about making my 110 what I wanted. I will add cruise one day. I will never get as far as aircon. 
 

Rust proofing and steel quality was also dire/worse respectively on the later models chassis. 

Yes, that was very apparent on the model I saw today. It's almost like Land Rover simply couldn't be bothered! The previous owner had clearly spent a lot of money on protecting the chasis as it was in remarkable condition, that's why I was so shocked to see holes in the aluminium. I'm keen to view the 2.4 that seems to be a higher spec with AC, electric windows and heated seats.

[Badger110]

2.4’s have very comfy seats, XS spec with A/C & heated seats and by far the best bit…heated windscreen!
The actual cabin heater is a pain for the footwell as it heats up the handbrake so you burn your leg on it ( you can buy an adapter to re direct the heater ) but the rest of it is good, it’ll even demist the side windows

TC is good and anti stall for when your lazy in traffic…not sure if these are standard or XS models only?

you can tune the engines up to silly spec if you really want to but the standard tune takes them up to 180bhp from 140bhp which really does make a difference, much quicker on accelerating and more torque which means less gear changing on long runs. The engine/running of the truck feels more free if that makes sense?

gearbox wise, 1st isn’t much use and 6th is more like an overdrive…you’ll find yourself pulling off in 2nd the majority of the time.

 

[monkie]

8 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

2.4’s have very comfy seats, XS spec with A/C & heated seats and by far the best bit…heated windscreen!
The actual cabin heater is a pain for the footwell as it heats up the handbrake so you burn your leg on it ( you can buy an adapter to re direct the heater ) but the rest of it is good, it’ll even demist the side windows

TC is good and anti stall for when your lazy in traffic…not sure if these are standard or XS models only?

you can tune the engines up to silly spec if you really want to but the standard tune takes them up to 180bhp from 140bhp which really does make a difference, much quicker on accelerating and more torque which means less gear changing on long runs. The engine/running of the truck feels more free if that makes sense?

gearbox wise, 1st isn’t much use and 6th is more like an overdrive…you’ll find yourself pulling off in 2nd the majority of the time.

 

This is helpful info, thank you. It is an XS spec I am looking at next. This is a novice question - where can you take them for a tune up to 180bhp and what ball park price is it?

[reb78]

https://bellautoservices.co.uk/store/
 

just an example. Pretty reliable place to get them. 

[landroversforever]

29 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

2.4’s have very comfy seats, XS spec with A/C & heated seats and by far the best bit…heated windscreen!
The actual cabin heater is a pain for the footwell as it heats up the handbrake so you burn your leg on it ( you can buy an adapter to re direct the heater ) but the rest of it is good, it’ll even demist the side windows

TC is good and anti stall for when your lazy in traffic…not sure if these are standard or XS models only?

you can tune the engines up to silly spec if you really want to but the standard tune takes them up to 180bhp from 140bhp which really does make a difference, much quicker on accelerating and more torque which means less gear changing on long runs. The engine/running of the truck feels more free if that makes sense?

gearbox wise, 1st isn’t much use and 6th is more like an overdrive…you’ll find yourself pulling off in 2nd the majority of the time.

 

Heated screen was available on the Td5 too. 

[landroversforever]

19 minutes ago, monkie said:

This is helpful info, thank you. It is an XS spec I am looking at next. This is a novice question - where can you take them for a tune up to 180bhp and what ball park price is it?

Lots of reputable tuners out there. I'd personally go to Ian at IRB Developments.

[reb78]

Just now, landroversforever said:

Lots of reputable tuners out there. I'd personally go to Ian at IRB Developments.

Haha. If you want a tune this century I wouldn't. 

[monkie]

6 hours ago, reb78 said:

https://bellautoservices.co.uk/store/
 

just an example. Pretty reliable place to get them. 

Ah I see, so it's a case of getting a magic little box you plug into a diagnostics port. I had incorrectly assumed you had to take it somewhere to be fiddled about with - I'm obviously still mentally in the Tdi era where you remove caps and turn things 🙄

[Badger110]

The system from BAS is pretty good as it doubles as a diagnostics tool as well, plugs into the OBD port and provides a lot of information.

 

You can turn off certain aspects of the tune as well as perform your own pump learn, injector learn which normally have to be done by a garage or someone with a plug in tool. 

[landroversforever]

6 hours ago, monkie said:

Ah I see, so it's a case of getting a magic little box you plug into a diagnostics port. I had incorrectly assumed you had to take it somewhere to be fiddled about with - I'm obviously still mentally in the Tdi era where you remove caps and turn things 🙄

Whilst lots of the companies do stuff remotely, it's always better to take it somewhere as they can do a few runs and make sure everything is as it should be before it's tuned.