Escape Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 That's a good point ^^ With the device attached to the dash, you'll be measuring the angle of the body, which is not necessarily the same as the surface, because of the suspension. I would expect the reading to be higher rather than lower though, as the vehicle will lean downhill. So there is some safety margin, but whether that would hold up in an argument, let alone in court is anyone's guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 47 minutes ago, Escape said: That's a good point ^^ With the device attached to the dash, you'll be measuring the angle of the body, which is not necessarily the same as the surface, because of the suspension. I would expect the reading to be higher rather than lower though, as the vehicle will lean downhill. So there is some safety margin, but whether that would hold up in an argument, let alone in court is anyone's guess. Quite. And as every vehicle has a different CoG and tipping angle, dependant on differences as small as tyre pressure and driver weight, let alone mods, and those go out of the window once dynamic stability and kinetic energy get involved, so it seems a little futile. I haven’t done a great deal of off roading, but got to some fairly significant angles on the Val d’Isere slopes and even with my limited experience could feel when the load on the upslope tyres was getting light. If I could feel that, them I’m sure experienced and more talented drivers would feel it far more sensitively. Still, if folk like gadgets, that is their choice. I just wouldn’t encourage them to trust those toys. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 47 minutes ago, Snagger said: Quite. And as every vehicle has a different CoG and tipping angle, dependant on differences as small as tyre pressure and driver weight, let alone mods, and those go out of the window once dynamic stability and kinetic energy get involved, so it seems a little futile. I haven’t done a great deal of off roading, but got to some fairly significant angles on the Val d’Isere slopes and even with my limited experience could feel when the load on the upslope tyres was getting light. If I could feel that, them I’m sure experienced and more talented drivers would feel it far more sensitively. Still, if folk like gadgets, that is their choice. I just wouldn’t encourage them to trust those toys. Unless you have some kind of active suspension that lets you raise one side of the vehicle up (the side/end most downhill). Which to some extent the new LR models on EAS do for side slopes, but it is very limited. The vehicle will show a steeper angle than the terrain, so there will be no risk at all, as the slope will never be as bad as measured. Also this doesn't have to be an exact science, just enough to be an informed decision. Slope angle is pretty hard to guess just looking at some ground (at least it is for me), even more so if you are on the side of a hill to begin with that might then have dips and rises. Hence the number of vehicles that do get rolled when off road. For my intended use I'll drive onto a bit of ground I want to use. If it says 33 degree side slope, it's no. If it says 20 degree, its a yes. In reality both would be safe, but one is permitted, the other isn't (for Tyro's). Without a measure I'm just guessing and we have had it queried on some events. At least this way I'll have some idea. Plus aside from that, it is just a stat. And lots of people, often car people love stats; top speed, power, 0-60mph, tyre diameter, ground clearance, wading depth, breakover angle, crawl ratio etc etc etc. I'm not sure I'm really understanding why you are so against this? Just to give a bit more substance to this. This is a Tyro we ran last year, someone complained the gradient of the site was too steep for a tyro. On the left by the fence line it gets steeper. As it happens it was well within the regs, but on the day nobody had any way of measuring what the gradient was. Ultimately it was just someone complaining, but it would have been nice to have had something more solid to shut them up with. On a similar note, just by eyeballing, I personally would not be able to tell if these angles are too much for a tyro or not (remember not subjective on if you'd drive it or not, it is 25% and 50% by the blue book). For an RTV it doesn't really matter, but as a club we are much newer to running Tyro events which have these heavier restrictions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 9 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: a GPS speedo is not a bad thing to have especially if you're switching between tyre sizes on the regular Provided the GPS is decent - no way I could rely on the one in my phone for this, it wanders all over the place. Confuses the satnav and has my speed fluctuating wildly (apparently my car is capable of impressive speeds and truly amazing acceleration....). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 6 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said: Provided the GPS is decent - no way I could rely on the one in my phone for this, it wanders all over the place. Confuses the satnav and has my speed fluctuating wildly (apparently my car is capable of impressive speeds and truly amazing acceleration....). Slightly off topic, but is it a modern'ish vehicle? I do use a gps speedo app on a phone quite a bit. Technically as far as I know they should be relatively accurate. If I use the app in my Jimny it does indeed fluctuate +-5mph constantly and never gives a constant read out. I assume there must be some interference. Because the same phone and app produce very stable readings in all my other vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonimouse Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 1 hour ago, Snagger said: Quite. And as every vehicle has a different CoG and tipping angle, dependant on differences as small as tyre pressure and driver weight, let alone mods, and those go out of the window once dynamic stability and kinetic energy get involved, so it seems a little futile. I haven’t done a great deal of off roading, but got to some fairly significant angles on the Val d’Isere slopes and even with my limited experience could feel when the load on the upslope tyres was getting light. If I could feel that, them I’m sure experienced and more talented drivers would feel it far more sensitively. Still, if folk like gadgets, that is their choice. I just wouldn’t encourage them to trust those toys. Val d'Isere, now that's a blast from the past! Those weren't slopes, they were precipices... Matthew of those pictures you've posted, the one with the nice G reg 90 is the one that would ring bells with me. the angle almost doubles the actual slope because of the COG weight transfer of driving up and across. The final picture shows a cat with loads of room to manoeuvre to place the vehicle safely. With your experience in trialling/greenlaning your brain will be telling you the same thing We're not knocking your idea, what we are saying is that this is probably not ideal for the job. If your insurer insists on this then ask them how they would do it. As an expert witness, I've been called to court over a couple of vehicle rolls, where people have been killed. I was asked by the Coroner at what point a vehicle becomes unstable. My answer was that the driver can tell as he/she/they can feel the vehicle destabilise, at which point a trained driver will turn downhill to stabilises what is usually the uphill rear wheel. I've driven a fair few Japanese vehicles with inclinometers fitted, all of which I've put black tape over. Your vehicle is, as I mentioned before, unique and the bolt on inclinometer is not approved for accurate measurements or even guidelines, it's a toy. However me wandering around a P&P site with a ranging rod and a hand held clinometer https://ninefit.uk/products/suunto-pm5spc-opti-clinometer?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk5iAuM_igwMVMJFQBh1Ngw9mEAQYAiABEgLBgPD_BwE that is TUV/CE/BSS approved to measure amongst many other things, slopes is allowable as a defence in court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 1 hour ago, geoffbeaumont said: Provided the GPS is decent - no way I could rely on the one in my phone for this, it wanders all over the place. Confuses the satnav and has my speed fluctuating wildly (apparently my car is capable of impressive speeds and truly amazing acceleration....). Make sure your phone is set to use actual GPS, and not just cell towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Try running navigation in the background/as an overlay, it fixes it for me.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonimouse Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I just use a little GPS speedo, from TEMU. It's ridiculously accurate and was less than a £5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 39 minutes ago, elbekko said: Make sure your phone is set to use actual GPS, and not just cell towers. It is. 38 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: Try running navigation in the background/as an overlay, it fixes it for me.... Makes no difference, and affects all apps the same. It's just very bad at holding a GPS lock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 4 hours ago, Nonimouse said: The final picture shows a cat with loads of room to manoeuvre to place the vehicle safely. With your experience in trialling/greenlaning your brain will be telling you the same thing. I had no part in setting up either of these events. They are actually RTV 's and at National level. But it is interesting you picked the last photo as this is what happened next.... Which I think really does go to show that sometimes it isn't easy to spot such hazards or how people might drive them. 4 hours ago, Nonimouse said: We're not knocking your idea, what we are saying is that this is probably not ideal for the job. If your insurer insists on this then ask them how they would do it. As an expert witness, I've been called to court over a couple of vehicle rolls, where people have been killed. I was asked by the Coroner at what point a vehicle becomes unstable. My answer was that the driver can tell as he/she/they can feel the vehicle destabilise, at which point a trained driver will turn downhill to stabilises what is usually the uphill rear wheel. I've driven a fair few Japanese vehicles with inclinometers fitted, all of which I've put black tape over. Your vehicle is, as I mentioned before, unique and the bolt on inclinometer is not approved for accurate measurements or even guidelines, it's a toy. However me wandering around a P&P site with a ranging rod and a hand held clinometer https://ninefit.uk/products/suunto-pm5spc-opti-clinometer?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk5iAuM_igwMVMJFQBh1Ngw9mEAQYAiABEgLBgPD_BwE that is TUV/CE/BSS approved to measure amongst many other things, slopes is allowable as a defence in court. I think you are taking this way out of context. I just want it for a bit of fun and a way of knowing what a certain slope may be angle wise. I'm not out measuring the slopes and we have been trialling for decades. It just a matter of self pride, that if I set an event up (which I a number of times a year). I'd like to know I've done my due diligence. e.g. a slope might be 40 degrees, which for another event we'd maybe drive along or at an angle. But for a tyro you'd have to stick with more of a straight up or down trajectory. There will be no insurance issues, no investigations. Just people enjoying motorsport safely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 The thing that David saw in that photo of the pretty 90 and the space that was apparent in the misleading hybrid photos was that the 90 was at vastly increased risk because of the turn upslope, which is exactly what got the hybrid but was hidden by the camera angle in its original photo. The slope that the 90 was crossing was significant but well within limits statically, but with the dynamics of the right turn, is very close. The slope with the hybrid was mild to moderate, but excess speed through the turn still managed to take it over. Measuring side slopes statically is not going to define whether or not a course is safe, though I can see the need if simple numbers make da difference to insurance (which goes to show how arbitrary that is). I’m not opposed to you buying that device, but I doubt its accuracy generally and certainly it’ll only measure the lean of your car’s body, which though arguably likely to be more than most because of your tyres and modified suspension, may be much less than other vehicles and so could be misleading and as a false reading of the actual terrain, may perversely be unacceptable in court (even though you’d have been overstating, not understating the slope). I think tools similar to what David used would be a better legal defence, but that is probably something that should be clarified in writing with the motorsport and insurance authorities (in writing, naturally). For all my apparent negativity, I do appreciate that you are trying to keep participants and their vehicles safe and trying to ensure that insurance policies are kept valid. Regarding GPS, I usually use my phone for satnav in cars, but recently renewed a car where I couldn’t get a GPS position inside it the entire day. Some seem worse than others for blocking or founding the signal, so an external antenna can help a lot. That should sort out the fluctuating speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alsace_rangie Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 GPS speed uses the doppler effect on the signals, not triangulation. So it could be affected by reflections inside the vehicle or just poor reception if that car blocks more than others. Could also be that some electrical/electronic device is emitting in the same frequency range which could also account for car to car differences. But once steady the speed should be within 0.2 Km/h, a bit better than a speedo! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 Got around to fitting the item I bought. Mini review here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Neater than the other unit. I hope it works well for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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