ChrisV8 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Just had a stonking weekend doing some of the lanes the guys from here did on their recent weekend, luckily for us it only rained on Saturday and we went on Sunday. But there we are admiring the prowess of a bog stock Disco D3 on the Grizedale - Esthwaite lane going West - East as required by the Heirarchy of Trails and we cama across a silver 07 reg 90 going East - West. We stopped and told the guy to turn round and go the correct way. His response was "we went this way with Kankku the other week and he recommended we do it this way" I lost the plot for which I apologise. We spent a day repairing this route way back in April with the Liverpool LR Club, TRF, GLASS et al, Dave Robinson the then Trails Advisor was with us, we had a great day and had good publicity from a superb job done. Whilst doing the job Kankku appeared going East - West with his expensively paying guests, he was well harangued, Dave Robinson had a go about correct routing, Geoff Wilson form Lara (on the Access Commitee) had a go. But here we are way down the line and this guy still ignores what is in affect a rule to follow. In his publicity blurb he says he will train and advise for "helping to preserve and protect historic trails for future generations" I am still gobsmacked at his total lack of awareness of the dodgy ground he is on for his business and our future use of these lanes. Recently the LDNP had a change of Chief Exec, the new man has come from English Nature and has stated he has a "Green Agenda" for the LDNP, Dave Robinson has moved to a new job I gather in the subsequent changes. So we now have a situation where the Bobblies will be complaining with photographic evidence of Kankku ignoring the recommendations of the Heirarchy of Trails. The response I expect soon is using the new powers under NERC is a TRO on this lane followed probably by the rest. Who is going to lose out ? Kankku lose all their business and we have lost a superb area for good technical lanes due totally to this idiot ! The problem is how can we control this business and all the others who are ignoring good sense and the recommended approach to laning ? I have posted this on a number of Forums as I am totally incensed with this total stupidity, I think the magazines should join forces now and name and shame those who will not conform, be it Commercial or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Put down anti vehicle mines but only warning signs that can be read going in the correct direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 The mags won't do anything, kankku advertise with them and hence will be beyond reproach. I would talk this over with the council & relevant authorities and make it clear that you're as p*ssed off as they are, at least then they know it's not the whole 4x4 community but just a stupid minority. From there, I would see what the council says and if there are any options to work together with other bodies, perhaps name & shame in the local media (would not only shame them but also show the responsible face of 4x4's for taking action in the first place). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Is it public highway or part of the National Park? If it is a public highway, unless there's a One-Way TRO on the lane (making the police able to prosecute for going the 'wrong' way) there is little the Council or the Police can do to stop it. The Hierarchy of Trails relies on voluntary self enforcement IIRC? As frustrating as it is, there is little legally that can be done. A TRO would enforce the one way, but a perminant one would take 6-9months and about £4000 to do, experiemental or temporary can be put in quickly though - but this would legally only last 12 - 18months and there is still a cost involved due to the need to advertise in the papers. ....and of course you then need someone to enforce it. If someone rang me at work with this problem I'd probably recommend appealing to the guy causing the issues - especially as you know who it is.. otherwise you're probably faced with a lack of funding and legal nightmare with the COuncil (no matter how helpful they try to be). Of course if it's not public highway then none of this applies... Jen (Traffic Management and Road Safety Local Govt. Officer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisV8 Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Just had a great response on another Forum, "request a TRO" now that sounds stupid at first but you can have a selective TRO as well as a vehicle ban, that's how the LDNP control Gatescarth under a TRO rule. What could be requested is a TRO stating usage is only legal West - East so if Kankku come the other way it's illegal, Mr Plod gets involved he is fined and the legality of his LR Taxi service can be investigated MMMMMMMMMM that sounds quite good really. For thos e who don't know you can avail yourself of this mans service, a taxi ride £200.00 or atag along service £89.00 or you can go to the LDNP web site and find out how you are supposed to go and where is legal all for FREE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Just had a great response on another Forum, "request a TRO" now that sounds stupid at first but you can have a selective TRO as well as a vehicle ban, that's how the LDNP control Gatescarth under a TRO rule. What could be requested is a TRO stating usage is only legal West - East so if Kankku come the other way it's illegal, Mr Plod gets involved he is fined and the legality of his LR Taxi service can be investigated MMMMMMMMMM that sounds quite good really. TRO stands for Traffic Regulation Order - they are used for everything from speed limits to yellow lines, as well as banning vehicles - and in your case you want a One Way Order. Read my post above though and you'll realise they take a long time to complete legally (or will only be experimental or temporary) and cost alot. The Police would also physically have to catch him to prosecute. It would at least make the Council realise you're serious about stopping this guy if you request a TRO though. I would suggest this option as probably been looked at when the Hof Trails was developed, but always worth another try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisV8 Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 The LDNP can impose a TRO as they are now responsible for all routes in the National Park under NERC powers just imposed. Unfortunately Dave Robinson who was very willing to work with the 4x4 and Trail Bike fraternity has been moved in the structure of new Chief Exec they are well aware of this man as he makes a big thing of flouting things he doesn't agree with like the speed limit on Windermere. The problem is they will impose a TRO and it won't be a selective one just a closure ! Geoff Wilson from LARA/TRF is on the access Commitee so we have a voice at present but his antics have to stop or we rea lost I am afraid as the Bobblies up here are very organised something to do with the Chairperson having a house up here I think !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 That makes sense if it's NP land. ...all that remains is to become as annoying as the most annoying bobblies (but in a nice way ). If you need any help or advice on what can/can't be done or the best way to oppose or look for legal irregularties in the TRO's then let me know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 For thos e who don't know you can avail yourself of this mans service, a taxi ride £200.00 or atag along service £89.00 So it is one particular commercial user that you have in your sights then? That is good. If he is behaving as a private hire company (taking money for rides in the car in public roads?) then he will need a private hire license issued by the local council for each vehicle won't he? Does he have one? ;) How about hanging around on the lane if you know he is likely to come by and make sure that you inform his clients - with leaflets - that they could be doing it for free and that the lanes are under threat as a result of what this one user/abuser is doing. Ultimately, you will be working within the law and making him look a fool in front of his clients. Make sure that he knows you will only do this if he continues to use the lane in the wrong direction. I must get around to sending out the bills for the last forum trip... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisV8 Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 So it is one particular commercial user that you have in your sights then? That is good.If he is behaving as a private hire company (taking money for rides in the car in public roads?) then he will need a private hire license issued by the local council for each vehicle won't he? Does he have one? ;) How about hanging around on the lane if you know he is likely to come by and make sure that you inform his clients - with leaflets - that they could be doing it for free and that the lanes are under threat as a result of what this one user/abuser is doing. Ultimately, you will be working within the law and making him look a fool in front of his clients. Make sure that he knows you will only do this if he continues to use the lane in the wrong direction. I must get around to sending out the bills for the last forum trip... Chris Can I add my "consultancy fee" ? The man is a menace as far as I am concerned and we need to publicise the fact as far as we can ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 I must get around to sending out the bills for the last forum trip... Chris ???? Tim is right, I am NOT in charge or responsible. Chris QUOTE(GBMUD @ Dec 2 2005, 10:21 AM) I wish to add some disclaimer here... I am only telling you guys that I have booked a short break. I am not planning or organising any group trip away nor am I offering to provide any route or navigation. In short, the buck does not even slow down here, understand? I am not responsible if you get bitten by a sheep, dog or farmer! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I must get around to sending out the bills for the last forum trip... Chris Chris nav bill was sent to you the day after the trip, you know interest is now building...... On a serious note the above is the exact reason why i do all my stuff on dedicated tracks on private land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 A friend lives in Cumbria and I cant risk writing up here what he and many locals think of Kankku. The owner doesnt care about the lanes, its a buisness and thats it. Some commercial users put alot back into the lanes, via maintenance etc, but others just give people a taste and let them loose with no proper knowledge. Ive met drivers on my local lanes that think its ok to leave the byways and trash the surrounding woodland, that dont think the laws of the road apply, and dont understand that they are driving an unsurfaced road. As for the one way system, my understanding was that was how the permit system worked, one month its one way, the next month the direction of travel is opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 As for the one way system, my understanding was that was how the permit system worked, one month its one way, the next month the direction of travel is opposite. There is no permit system for the lane in question. It is always open but only in the one direction, west to east. I don't know if this is simply a voluntary restriction under the HOTR or if it has some legislation behind it such as a directional TRO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 or if it has some legislation behind it such as a directional TRO. If it does the Police will be able to prosecute the violators, worth a quick e-mail to the LDNP to find out if anyone has their details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 The man is a menace as far as I am concerned and we need to publicise the fact as far as we can ! Hi Chris, can you please provide details on why the man is a menace. So far I've read that he has driven in one direction on a lane that has no directional or seasonal TRO on, but this is against certain gudelines that state that it is best to drive it in the other direction. Whose guidelines are these? Are these clearly stated somewhere, signs on the lane? Not picking at anything, just trying to determine if you have an issue with his commercial use or this lane in particular. Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Whose guidelines are these? Are these clearly stated somewhere, signs on the lane? These are Hierarchy of Trail Routes guidelines, some info on HOTR can be found here, it outlines basics and the bodies involved. Info about the direction restriction is available on the LDNP website the list of UCR's within the national park, here. The lane in question is U5050. There is also a HOTR sign at each end of any of the lanes (UCR's or Byways) in the LDNP which details any restrictions. When we done this lane both signs where in place and as it's a 'red' route it's monitored fairly regularly. While we where laning in the lakes I only noticed one HOTR sign mising and that wasn't on a red route. Given that the forum laning trip was well aware of this restriction I find it hard to believe that anyone running laning tours in the area for the length of time that Kankku have would not be aware of the restriction. The restriction has been in place a number of years, it was active when I was laning up there in 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Thanks Mark, as the post seem to be going all over the place. So he's not breaking any law, he's flagrantly ignoring LDNP guidelines for conserving the lanes. As Chris says this goes against hs statements on his site. Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisV8 Posted December 14, 2007 Author Share Posted December 14, 2007 That's just my point, comes out with a load of green stuff and states he will train and advise to "protect these historic trails for future generations" and then goes totally against an agreed procedure. He certainly had not advised the client we came across !!!! Any way, we have identified quite a lot of maintenance needed so there will no doubt be a working party organised in the New Year and all volunteers are very welcome, but don't expect to see a Kankku LR in the car park, he will probably drive past during the day !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Hi all. I'am new to all this having only ever gone out greenlaning with a group called simply 4x4 based in North Wales, have I done anything wrong with this as the owner provides you with a list of do's & don'ts and nothing about one way restrictions etc. I've been with him on most of the Wales runs and the peak district but never to the lakes, is this a local problem ? Only came on the forum as I do have a problem with it at the moment and that how I located this forum, so i'll be posting in the help section soon. Someone within simply 4x4 sent me a list of sites and was looking for the introductions do you have one ? . Regards andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisV8 Posted December 14, 2007 Author Share Posted December 14, 2007 In a simple answer, the Lakes are special in that the LDNP have been very proactive with clasification and dealing with the issues of 4x4 and trail bike useage of what are some very excellent lanes. As this is in an area used by huge numbers of Bobblies it has to be applauded, they have a very active and balanced access commitee who advise, with users from all sides so I feel very positive about it but try to ensure that the guidelines are kept to by everyone and I think the Commercial users should also abide by the guidelines. The group from this forum had a great time on an awful weekend very recently with clear information on where and in what direction you are expected to go. In other areas of the country the info is either not available or kept hidden and that is a big issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 from the H of T weblink above The Hierarchy of Trail Routes is a management approach for the level of activity on green roads through voluntary restraint rather than statutory legislation. seems that it's totally voluntary & not a traffic law that can be enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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