Larger Capacity V8's

[webbsite]

Hello All,

I have been asked to help someone source a large capacity Rover based V8 for his

P38 Pickup.

I suggested an LS1/LS6 conversion but no he wants it to be rover based.

So far i have found 5.2 litre motors from JE and RPI and believe it or not a 6 litre

from a company in wales called Wildcat engineering.

It will be used for dune running here in Saudi Arabia so it must be a complete turnkey engine

all built up with ancillaries and ready to bolt in and fire up.

Does anybody have any experiences or information on large capacity units.

At the moment we are unsure about the transmission being manual or auto!

Regards

Roger_______________Roger

[Mark]

Moved to int, as likely to get a a bigger audience...

[FridgeFreezer]

The money that baby will cost you could buy an LS1, gearbox of your choice and atlas transfer case and probably have plenty of change leftover. The RV8 will be on the ragged edge to get near the power the LS1 will make in standard tune.

[Astro_Al]

What he said.

You could probably thrown in an LS7 for similar pennies.

Why is he insisting on Rover? Its many many decades out of date now.

Al.

[FridgeFreezer]

Why not go the whole hog and throw a 200TDi in there

[discojmz]

Why not go the whole hog and throw a 200TDi in there

best bit of advice anyone's given thus far

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Yep, Maybe I can

There are a number of quality firms who can supply large capacity Rover V8s, and some you should aviod like the plaque

It will depend on

How big is yer wallet and I mean seriously - how big ?

How much of a "Turnkey" unit you want ?

How much you wnat to specify as oppossed to having a known "Model" Unit ?

J.E.D and Wildcat are 2 of the best IMHO

However, Big Capacity ROVER V8s will involve huge amounts of machining and specialist skills,

as such the £s cost is disproportionate to say a LS Unit, and spares etc will need to come from the 'supplier' rather than a motor factor.

Just the set of rings alone for mine (nowhere in this league) were £300, and Pistons £180 each, the stuff your talking about is hugely more

A Bit more info who help / ie budget / anticipated BHP / Usage /wants etc .........then I may be able to help more - point in the right direction(s)

Wildcat - I am not sure if they buil full 'turnkey' units, much is often is I think (maybe wrong) supplied and then fitted / Built up by specialists or enthusiasts / by someone, as oppossed to John at JE that will build, absolutely completely, dynotest and set up the ECU (which last time I knew about he uses DTA system) and thus you can get a HUGELY powerfull 5.3 V8 Run in sorted fit nuts and bolt and turn the key engine - but you are looking at prob UPWARDS of a Minimum £15,000 due to the exotic nature of the workmanship, parts and modifications

There is some belief that Wildcat are even more exotic in some ways than JED ie they MAKE there own cylinder heads from their own special castings, whereas JED will turn a Boggo boring V8 Rover head into something you can barely recognise and will dribble over - with a huge amount of man hours and a bill suitable of course for the effort.

All of the above makes a LS look huge VFM - which they are - factory fresh, high qulaity and BIG BHP for a fraction of the above stylee units,

and they will stand abuse and mistreatment - make no mistake wildcat JED V8D etc all will need to be 'spolit' if you don't want an expensive "Bang"

More info may help

Nige

PS Having posted up have also just thought if this is going into a P38 (WHY ?) most of the transmission Axles drive train gearbox etc will go "POP" in a big and regular way without some massive upgres, ie a ZF auto - HAHAHA I don't think so they can be built stronger (ask Ashcrofts) but often these have rakeway sequntial striaght cut boxes etc, he can't just bolt in a Big Cap tuned V8 and "Give it large"

[jwriyadh]

Hi Roger, whilst I can understand somebody wanting to stay RV8 based but as soon as he gets to bigger capacities then he is just buying problems. The only justification I can think of is to retain the standard engine management system (uprated) to tie in with the rest of the P38.

Even if he does go that way the rest of the drivetrain is going to be under severe strain. It would be a never-ending project of uprate and strengthen.

As suggested above an LSx would be a better choice in terms of reliability and longevity. Additionally this would also provide a simpler path to installing an uprated drivetrain which will be sorely needed.

Two last reasons for that choice, firstly, is a that a carefully selected engine/drivetrain from Al Hai'ír would change a long moneypit project into a fairly rapid install and drive away, and secondly, no dependency on remote support or spares.

jw

[FridgeFreezer]

A big capacity Rover V8 is not going to be able to use the standard management or many if any standard parts so there goes that idea, if that's the idea.

Did I mention the LS1 is no bigger or heavier than the RV8?

[q-rover]

Try and get this amount of power from a rover V8.

But consider this one is in standard unstressed tune, whereas a Rover V8 will be on the limit.

[will_warne]

PS Having posted up have also just thought if this is going into a P38 (WHY ?) most of the transmission Axles drive train gearbox etc will go "POP" in a big and regular way without some massive upgres, ie a ZF auto - HAHAHA I don't think so they can be built stronger (ask Ashcrofts) but often these have rakeway sequntial striaght cut boxes etc, he can't just bolt in a Big Cap tuned V8 and "Give it large"

I'd be even more worried about this. I assume you're starting with a 4.6 P38 which means you've already got an HP24 spec box (stronger than the HP22 spec box used in the 4.0). There's a few tweeks you can do to them but you'll be running right on the limit, if not beyond, with a hot RV8.

If you want turnkey LSx why not speak to Overfinch? They'd probably fit the engine and gearbox (4L80E IIRC) for less than a hot turnkey RV8.

[Astro_Al]

Will, I think he's in Reeyad... Ryadh... Rehade... Saudi Arabia, so fitting by Overfinch probably isn't an option.

Al.

[DaveSIIA]

If you want turnkey LSx why not speak to Overfinch? They'd probably fit the engine and gearbox (4L80E IIRC) for less than a hot turnkey RV8.

They used to use 700R4 transmissions.

Transfer box output on the LHS of the vehicle must open a few more options for US products that already mate to a 4L80E. Throw in a transmission computer and a bit of wire - job's a good un! All bits bar propshafts would be off the shelf at not stupid money.

[will_warne]

Will, I think he's in Reeyad... Ryadh... Rehade... Saudi Arabia, so fitting by Overfinch probably isn't an option.

Al.

I spotted that but, given the sums involved, it might be possible to ship the car back to the UK for the work.

[Dr Gneil Pipely]

If he wants to use a manual gearbox, none of the R380s are really suitable for seriously big outputs. Though Quaife gearkits will help.

I know of a comp safari vehicle being built at the moment which runs a proven 400hp Wildcat-headed 5ltr RV8, but the transmission is Tremec manual gearbox with Ashcroft transfer box.

Later ZF autoboxes are used in Aston Martins, Audis, etc and are capable of handling megapower though.

[Astro_Al]

What are the actual requirements? I guess he isn't just specifying the engine he wants as 'big capacity' and 'Rover' - that seems a pretty vacuous way to find the correct solution. Does he have any idea of required torque & power curves?

Al.

[landmannnn]

Try and get this amount of power from a rover V8.

But consider this one is in standard unstressed tune, whereas a Rover V8 will be on the limit.

Americans quote the theoretic power output so 400 hp is not the actual power output. Still loads more than a RV8 and about a million times more power than a 200tdi.

Mike

[pugwash]

Americans quote the theoretic power output so 400 hp is not the actual power output. Still loads more than a RV8 and about a million times more power than a 200tdi.

don't think this method of powe "estimation" has been used since steam engines where "nominal" horsepower was used- took no account of engine efficiency.

Yanks now used HP SAE net usually which isn't too inaccurate, certainly it's an apporvement over HP SAE gross.

UK power is usually quoted as HP DIN (iirc is a german standard), have recently seen HP ECE figures which are close to DIN figures but slightly lower as it involves power loss from engine driven fans. HP DIN is often quoted as PS (which is about .98 of HP DIN)

it's all a bit difficult to work out which standard to use- but the only really useful measure would be wheel HP which isn't quoted by any manufacturer. Don't even get me started on estimated flywheel power that just guesses at the power at the flywheel using run down losses- it's rubbish of the highest order.

[webbsite]

Well,

Thank you all for confirming what I already thought, the idea of maintaining a Wildcat 6.0 with sequential

shifter box out here in Saudi makes the mind boggle. The customer had seen one in a magazine and says "I want one" also he seems to have the necessary pot of money required. I think I have managed to make him see some sense, but he is still very interested in putting together something other than a Toyota. He made the P38 pickup but is not happy with it and may junk it but he also has an ex military 110 with salisbury axles front & back!

Question for JWRiyadh do you still have your 110 out here?

LS1 motors and 4L80-E boxes are quite common out here as they are used in the Chevrolet (Holden) Caprice and Lumina's and the GMC 4x4's seem to be fitted with the auto boxes.

Now I have some questions for you all regarding the LS1 route:-

1) is a 4L80-E a straight bolt up job or does it need a specific variant or adapters?

2) does anyone have the wiring diagrams?

3) which is the best software to set up the engine control module?

4) if I use the Marks adapter for the LT230 will it stand up to the extra power or will I need to use a US spec transfer box as well?

4) has anybody actually done it and got one running, or is all part of the many vapour builds we keep hearing about?

[pugwash]

LS1 motors and 4L80-E boxes are quite common out here as they are used in the Chevrolet (Holden) Caprice and Lumina's and the GMC 4x4's seem to be fitted with the auto boxes.

Now I have some questions for you all regarding the LS1 route:-

1) is a 4L80-E a straight bolt up job or does it need a specific variant or adapters?

g/box will bolt up to engine no problems, although one of the bolt holes isn't used-however you need a specific flexplate and spacer- the Torque converter (a standard 4l80e item) connects to the spacer which then bolts to the crank through the flex plate (http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4l80e.htm ). You will need a different dust cover. There are some differences between models of 4L80e- you want the later version post 98 as the oil pump was of an improved design. You will need a controller for the box- TCI make one, and megasquirts IO module can also control the box. Personally if your man has money then i would get a box built with strengthened input and sun gear and a fully manual valve body with a B&M ratchet shifter. This will give effectively a sequential box but allow WOT shifts.

2) does anyone have the wiring diagrams?

i have them in PDF for a holden somewhere.

3) which is the best software to set up the engine control module?

2 Major versions- EFIlive and LS1 edit. I'm using EFIlive because you can get suppport in the UK from a chap called Richard Ingram- not much use to you through i guess You have to buy one of them as you have to remove VATS (the anti theft system) to get the engine to start! Also you will be losing a lot of other sensors and you need to delete their use from the ECU.

4) if I use the Marks adapter for the LT230 will it stand up to the extra power or will I need to use a US spec transfer box as well?

the adaptor will certainly stand up to the power- will the LT230? hmm not so sure- mine has been fine so far, but it hasn't been used for more than moving the vheicle in and out of the workshop. The experiences of Eliot Mez at www.mez.co.uk who runs an twin turbo intercooled chevy V8 through a 4L60e (which ofted destroys itself) and an LT230 (which has never gone wrong), along with a few others, would suggest that the LT230 will happily take the power. I'm happy to use my LT230, but on the flip side i will keep a spare in the workshop just in case. If i went down this route again i would probably just bolt up an atlas transfer case as you get better gearing option and more usefully the outputs have a greater standoff than the LT230- ie you get better clearance down the side of the g/box for proper shafts. Using an LT230 you have to run a solid bar front prop and there is NOT a lot of clearance.

4) has anybody actually done it and got one running, or is all part of the many vapour builds we keep hearing about?

my setup runs enough to get the vehicle in and out of the workshop, so drivetrainwise YES by setup works- it's just everything else which isn't finished. It sounds fantastic though, and certainly doesn't lack power

Things to think about.

1. Clearance- LSx fits in place of an RV8 NO problem however you will need to move the transfer box mountings back as the whole lot is a bit longer. This may give you problems with space under your floor.

2.Additional parts- you will need lots of small parts which are best to get first- new flexible gearbox dipstick, different engine mounts, bellhousing bolts, gearbox cross braces, flexplate, spacer, engine mounts (although originals can be adapted),

3. Driveline- you are going to be chucking a huge amount of power through the drivetrain- you WILL need to uprgrade the axles. an LS1 makes an easy 360lb/ft without trying- remap and some better breathing takes that to 400lb/ft without trying. Not far off twice what a rover axle WON'T take in standard trim!

4. Unexpected benefits- the PAS pump pushes roughly twice as much fluid as the RV8 pump-perfect for hydroassist. Economy- the engine is far far more economical than a rover V8- it's no uncommon to get 23/24mpg on a run- guess this won't matter to you guys though!

5. Problems- HEAT. A lot to get rid of- however you can buy an upgraded firebird radiator from summit racing that is almost exactly the same size as a range rover item. It's a triple core ali jobby. Steam outlet- if you don't get a proper LS1 rad then you need to find out about the steam pipe issue- basically a pipe from the heads which allow steam back to the rad and therefore improves cooling. can be blanked off but it's not ideal. Fuel system setup- the majority of LSxs use a returnless system and the fuel system needs to pump a huge amount of fluid http://www.racetronix.com/RX-F98-FPKG-2.html can help

[q-rover]

[pugwash]

one thing i meant to add.

if he is giong to spend this amount of money- £3k for crate engine, £1500 for hand built manual autobox and from £300- £1300 for transfer case option then i would take the time to find out just how much power he wants. If he wants 400bhp plus (which really means LS6 or LS7 (hmmm 7 litres) if he wants to keep the torque nice and low) then you might as well get the TC machined to match the powre point of the engine.

Other performance options which are worth thinking about are a second hand LS1 with a blower bolted on- kits are really quite reasonable- only around the £2k mark which seeing as it gives you 50% more power is bargain money. If you bought a second hand LS1 and a blower kit you can happily run around with 600bhp for about £4grand and it will be as realiable as you could want.

another option is to put in an LS1 to begin with and then bolt in a stroker kit- you can easily take a 5.7LS1 up to 6.3 for a few hundred quid- it's the joy of yank performance parts. This way you don't need to play with torque converters later- worth getting an LS1 with an LS6 intake too.

On a different topic if your man ever fancies getting into competition you want to make sure he gets an LSx with a cable operated throttle. The electricly actuated throttles are alledgedly quite unreliable, and, you can't fit a safety return spring to them which rules you out of some comps eek

[bathtub]

Well,

Thank you all for confirming what I already thought, the idea of maintaining a Wildcat 6.0 with sequential

shifter box out here in Saudi makes the mind boggle. The customer had seen one in a magazine and says "I want one" also he seems to have the necessary pot of money required. I think I have managed to make him see some sense, but he is still very interested in putting together something other than a Toyota. He made the P38 pickup but is not happy with it and may junk it but he also has an ex military 110 with salisbury axles front & back!

Question for JWRiyadh do you still have your 110 out here?

LS1 motors and 4L80-E boxes are quite common out here as they are used in the Chevrolet (Holden) Caprice and Lumina's and the GMC 4x4's seem to be fitted with the auto boxes.

Now I have some questions for you all regarding the LS1 route:-

1) is a 4L80-E a straight bolt up job or does it need a specific variant or adapters?

2) does anyone have the wiring diagrams?

3) which is the best software to set up the engine control module?

4) if I use the Marks adapter for the LT230 will it stand up to the extra power or will I need to use a US spec transfer box as well?

4) has anybody actually done it and got one running, or is all part of the many vapour builds we keep hearing about?

Put it this way give me £6K for my 5.2l Ex Works TVR 500 engine & you can have all the bits you want including to 2 200amp alternators & 1200hp rated 3 speed auto .Then ill go & buy the LS6 engine Your still be alleast £5k better & ill get a proper engine

[Astro_Al]

You guys are behind the times - check out the LS3, it comes in 3 increasingly fruity flavours...

Or wait for the supercharger versions on the horizon. LS8 or 9 anyone?

Al.

[geoffbeaumont]

Or wait for the supercharger versions on the horizon. LS8 or 9 anyone?

Now you're talking! Dribble...

Funnily enough I was wondering earlier what you'd have to do with the drivetrain to put a supercharged LS1 in, say, a lightweight. Hey, it was dull it day...