In need of some tdi experts/guru’s

[Aragorn]

as far as i understand it the problem you will encounter even with nitrous is that the injector flow rate is fixed by the pumps injection pressure

if you try and inject twice as much fuel, it takes twice as long for the injection event to end.

The result of this is that even if you can get enough air in to burn the fuel, the combustion process will still be occurring way after when it should have finsihed, resulting in effectively still burning fuel being chucked into the exhaust manifold. This will quickly cause the EGT's to skyrocket and the pistons, valves and turbine will quickly expire.

VAG engines are tunable yes, but not on the stadnard injectors, the 110hp vag engine will see about 130-140hp on the stock injecotrs before they will simply stop being effective. Larger injectors simply arent available for the LR TDi.

One approach that may work, is to leave the derv pump alone, and use a propane/nitrous injection mix to gain the extra power. You will be able to get more power than with nitrous alone on the derv pump, and the combustion will complete properly, but you'll have to carefully watch the EGT's and i still think that even 250hp is probably out of reach

I've looked into this myself, and came to the conclusion that it basically needs a different engine.

the TD5 is good for about 200hp before the stock injectors are at max flow add some propane and you might get 250.

BMW M57TU2 is a 3L I6 with Twin turbochargers, and produces 280hp in stock trim, would likely be a bit of a nightmare to get running though, there are off the shelf landrover bellhousings available though as south africa got M52 powered defenders.

I've come to the conclusion that the best approach is a petrol LPG conversion and a V8

Not a rover V8 though, because i do agree they are **** engines.

I would look to either the 4.2L 32/40v Audi V8, the 4.0/4.4L 32v BMW V8 or the 4.0 Lexus V8

They are all alloy designs and all produce ~280hp in standard trim, the audi unit seems to be the best value, ive seen them available for 600quid on ebay numerous times.

A rover V8 will do 15ish mpg on gas, a standard or mildly tuned TDi will do 30mpg

One of those modern multi valve v8's is going to be better than the old rover engine on fuel, and add the fact that gas is ~50p a litre and diesel is approaching £1.20 a litre the V8 seems the better option

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

You bad man Jez .......................... dont try the extinguisher trick............ it hurts.........it hurts a lot.............

Instead sit astride a pub sized bottle and break the cap..................

NOS as in

Ian

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hmmm

Like the pic below, you can do all sorts of things to all sorts of Vehicles

Some though you wonder .......why the effort

"I'd rather NOS my TDi 90" shes saying ?

Nige

[The Hatt]

Not its not average..... and neither will yours be when you start prodiucing the power !.................... if I use the power then 12 mpg is more realistic........

Well ok.

As it currently sits I see a fairly decent 24+mpg overall average of all the driving conditions I encounter.

I agree while running the nitrous I will expend more fuel but this will only be at times when the system is armed and activated at WOT. All other times it won’t affect mpg. I hope lol

It was never meant to be 300bhp............... not difficult to do, but 3.9's with that sort of power are difficult to live with...............

But that was my point, well partly.

300 ponies from a 4.6 would be a better option, but I defy you to tell the difference between 284 and 300 bhp...............however, its not power that counts......... torque is what we want and we want it exactly in the right place on the rev band....................

Exactly, I guess I may have been optimistic about HP levels on the tdi, but it does make a lot of torque even in stock trim. If Allisports figures are to be believed my tdi is making over 250lb ft @ under 1800rpm. A 300bhp (or 280bhp) 4.6 won’t be doing that at that rpm level. And I’m hoping that nitrous will see well over 300 lb ft at these low rpms.

Yes.............. 30%+ is the norm for and antiquated LR drive system.............. using different oils and making sure the wheel bearing, brakes and tyres aee all perfect can help................................what did you think the loses would be ?

Well I don’t know exactly and I admit if you had 35” tyres on for the dyno run they wouldn’t have helped but it seems far far more drivetrain loss than similar Jeeps and Ford Bronco’s seem to lose on the rollers.

Scoobies always reckon to lose a third.................... and plenty of those have had a lot of roller time.........................

This is an area I’ve done a lot of reading and research on and talked to many people across the world about it. And the conclusion is that if you are losing that much then something is wrong.

I admit dyno type (inertia or eddy current) and correction factors (SAE, STD) will affect readings but never seen proof of this level of loss. In fact having spoken to a lot of Evo/Scooby owners State side I think they struggle to realistically claim 20-22% drivetrain loss with more like 18% working out nearer the mark using various calculations.

But hay it’s a big topic and one where there are always a million opinions….

Check the regulations about storing gases and liquids (and local bylaws).................... the word bulk is defined in those by quantity and some are very low indeed................

Better go check the strimmer 2 stroke mix……. lol

EGT's are controlled on tuned diesel by monitoring, but more importantly that are very much part of the engine map setup .............. NOS will produce large EGT spikes ...i.e lot of power over a very, very, short time period........... I don't know how the engine will react to these spikes and I dont know if a standart thermocouple will capture them to the gauge...........

Think I’ll just have to try a suck it and see approach. I’m not going to barrel in with a 150 shot but start off with a 25 and take it from there.

Are you convinced that the LR drive train will handle the extra torque ?

Nope!

what gearbox are you going to use ? what are the plans for the axles ?

Well my current Disco (the modded 200tdi) has a LT77 which I know won’t hack it.

I do have a 300tdi auto waiting in the winds though. And while not the ultimate solution I know of guys in Aus and the US putting decent amounts of power/torque thru them.

The other factor is while off roading in difficult situations the nitrous won’t be used so the extra torque will not be there to brake more stuff like that. It would only be at WOT so a very hill climbs, mudding but mostly just highway work.

[The Hatt]

as far as i understand it the problem you will encounter even with nitrous is that the injector flow rate is fixed by the pumps injection pressure

if you try and inject twice as much fuel, it takes twice as long for the injection event to end.

The result of this is that even if you can get enough air in to burn the fuel, the combustion process will still be occurring way after when it should have finsihed, resulting in effectively still burning fuel being chucked into the exhaust manifold. This will quickly cause the EGT's to skyrocket and the pistons, valves and turbine will quickly expire.

VAG engines are tunable yes, but not on the stadnard injectors, the 110hp vag engine will see about 130-140hp on the stock injecotrs before they will simply stop being effective. Larger injectors simply arent available for the LR TDi.

Thanks.

One approach that may work, is to leave the derv pump alone, and use a propane/nitrous injection mix to gain the extra power. You will be able to get more power than with nitrous alone on the derv pump, and the combustion will complete properly, but you'll have to carefully watch the EGT's and i still think that even 250hp is probably out of reach

I've looked into this myself, and came to the conclusion that it basically needs a different engine.

the TD5 is good for about 200hp before the stock injectors are at max flow add some propane and you might get 250.

BMW M57TU2 is a 3L I6 with Twin turbochargers, and produces 280hp in stock trim, would likely be a bit of a nightmare to get running though, there are off the shelf landrover bellhousings available though as south africa got M52 powered defenders.

I've come to the conclusion that the best approach is a petrol LPG conversion and a V8

Not a rover V8 though, because i do agree they are **** engines.

I would look to either the 4.2L 32/40v Audi V8, the 4.0/4.4L 32v BMW V8 or the 4.0 Lexus V8

They are all alloy designs and all produce ~280hp in standard trim, the audi unit seems to be the best value, ive seen them available for 600quid on ebay numerous times.

A rover V8 will do 15ish mpg on gas, a standard or mildly tuned TDi will do 30mpg

One of those modern multi valve v8's is going to be better than the old rover engine on fuel, and add the fact that gas is ~50p a litre and diesel is approaching £1.20 a litre the V8 seems the better option

thanks for the info.

I agree about the engines, although my choice would be a Chevy LS1. 350hp/370lb ft stock. Small and lightweight, produces 90% of its torque from 1500rpm yet doesn’t mind to rev.

[The Hatt]

let off a CO2 fire extingusher on your hand and you'll feel the effects

See this is living up to the friendly forum tag that come up on Google….

I would suggest doing a little more research before you take the plunge - wizzards of Nos are ok but not the font of all knowledge you might want to research "NOS" (try looking for Nitrous Oxide Systems - true daddies of laughing gas)

Well from what I can tell the WON systems massively out perform NOS systems in reliability and performance. Plus NOS may be the “Daddies” but that doesn’t mean they are now with the times.

and spend some time looking at tractor pulls.

eh? Not building a tractor pulling machine. Just looking to improve performance of my ROAD going Disco without spending too much.

Personally I'd suggest a cummins 5.9 as being a cheaper option...

I really love the Cummins and would buy a Dodge Ram 2500 just for that engine. But I seriously can’t see buying & importanting an engine which weighs about 900lb and is probably too big for the engine bay is going to be cheaper than fitting a £600 WON kit….. :confused:

But if you can get a Cummins for this money PLEASE PLEASE Pm me.

having said that dropping a shot on a diesel is a pretty straightforward proposal, technically its easier and safer than dropping it on a petrol motor, an easy way to get round the whole fuel enrichment and EGT issue would be to run a twin tank setup and drop propane in with the blue. Its the most folorn hope of a project Ive seen which makes it applaudable and truly worth doing

you're not going to find a transmission with a green oval on it thats not going to auto-dismantle the first time you hit it though

I think the tranny will be an issue, but as stated I’m going to start on smaller shots first.

Plus if I replace tranny now it will cost. If I replace it once its broken it will still cost the same. So it’s not priority No. 1 at the moment.

Thanks for your help though, you have provided some useful info

[Guest WALFY]

Nige

Even though it's not to my taste either, you have to marvel at the workmanship that goes into building something like that

[Les Brock]

Blimey.....

Thats some big woman that gave up that shoe....

Imagine the Bra.....

[Kev Baldwin]

Talk to Roland Marlow at ACR. He's clued up on Tdi's, and will tell you like it is.

I recall a conversation I had with him approx 3-yrs ago when he was looking at developing a 300Tdi 2.8 'stroker' engine.

Last time I saw him I asked whatever came of it. He reckoned because the Td5 unit is so cheap (compared with Tdi) and plentiful these days and you can literally 'bolt-on' extra performance with them, the hot Tdi idea was a waste of expensive time and effort.

[FridgeFreezer]

If it's just for the giggle, and engine death is an acceptable risk then go for it - enjoy.

But, as has been said:

- If you gain the power you'll lose the MPG anyway

- You'll break the drivetrain, and quite possibly the engine too.

- You'll spend more flogging a horse that's coughing up blood than just buying a bigger horse

- If it was that simple everyone would be doing it

The TGV may be a better starting point but jeebus, for the price of one you could have a complete engine and drivetrain from the states that makes double the numbers.

Yes the RV8 is expensive to tune seriously, but at the lower end you can get a nice lump for not much money. It does give you a smoother delivery, I'd wager a stock 4.2 / 4.6 would be a more usable prospect than a 200TDi tweaked to the ragged edge. You say this is for street use, I really hope this doesn't mean you're sad enough to be trying to build a TDi Land Rover to race Corsas and Saxos off the traffic lights

Even if that is the case, I'd still wager a nicely set-up (not big money) V8 would cross the line ahead of a tweaked up 200TDi just by virtue of being driveable. Probably return similar MPG too.

I have hit 20mpg on a run with a 3.9 V8 in a 109. When I hook the speedo up I'll be able to measure the 4.6, I guestimate it's hitting about 15 on average with 37" tyres and very low gearing, although it has been known to creep towards 18-19 on a run. Higher gearing is in progress which may help. The fact there's not a single bit of clockwork, or Lucas electronics on it undoubtedly helps too.

These days there are so many better engines than anything LR made, when you can crate an LS or LT lump over from the states for a couple of K spending anything on fancy pants bits for a LR lump seems rather pointless. An LS1 will make 300+ out of the crate and will make it for 100,000 miles. In a cute little LR it might even manage 20+mpg thanks to DoD. We'll find out very soon when Jez pulls his finger out

Alternatively you could go the Marco Cosic route and go for a small, revvy 4-pot like the Rover 220 turbo stuck to a Disco MPi bellhousing. Then there's any number of 20-years-more-modern engines from the likes of BMW, Audi, Lexus, Ford, etc. - have a scan through Practical Performance Car for stimulation.

This post hasn't actually contained any of the information that you may want to hear, sorry

[jimmy_neutron]

Thanks for replying

When you say seriously unreliable, do you have experience of this or know someone who has had failed pistons at lower hp levels?

nope - will explain...

As my understanding goes people get this level of power with just exhaust, intake, intercooler and tuning and still remain emissions legal without a cat. I've not know of this actually pushing the engine to it's limits, just a limit most consider after having spent a few grand.

BUT, if I'm wrong and you know of actual engine failures at this level please please post some more info.

lol :lol: :lol:

I take it you've never tried tuning a Rover V8 then, no offence meant but the Rover V8 is old, inefficient and horrendously expensive to modify not too mention likes far too much of a drink.

Please note, if you disagree, don't like or have no experience with this tuning method please don't bash. There is a lot of information available and I'll be happy to supply what info I can.

Ok currently the vehicle is running a modified exhaust, tweaked injector pump, full width intercooler and upped boost (it's a 200tdi). So pretty regular tuning stuff. The engine is 100% stock otherwise.

Allisport claim a 35% increase in performance. Well I don't have figures but it certainly runs better and a simple calculation gives me (111bhp + 35% and 195lb ft + 35%) ~150bhp/263lb ft +-

Now for the interesting bit - well its called nitrous oxide :blink:

Yes I know many claim it blows up engines and shouldn't be used. But those self same people also used to claim superchargers and turbo's do the same. But history has proven them to be reliable.

Nitrous has been a proven technology for over 30 years.

My intent is fuelling permitted to attempt to run a 100 shot or greater, but while turbo diesels are usually built tougher due to their design requirements (18:1 CR, etc.) I don't know what limits a Landy tdi has.

In the nitrous world there are several guys running 1.9 turbo diesels and making great reliable power. The Vauxhall unit has proven successful with its newer common rail design and has reliably produced 250bhp/380lb ft from a 1.9!!!!

The VW direct injection 1.9 has also proven capable of in excess of 230bhp with ease. With the larger displacement of the tdi and ease of being able to tune the Bosch injector pump I hoping more will be attainable.

All sounds good .. 200tdi is pretty tough. I think it was designed by using the sum of 'that and a bit more'.

200tdi is an underachiever and is probably capable of alot more. Gotta think of stroke length though. Not got figures but bet it'll be close to square.

[Mo Murphy]

The maximum safe EGT on a Tdi is 720 deg C

Mo

[steve_d]

Has anyone mentioned Chevy V8 yet?

Stay where you are, I'll get my own coat.

Steve

[The Hatt]

If it's just for the giggle, and engine death is an acceptable risk then go for it - enjoy.

But, as has been said:

- If you gain the power you'll lose the MPG anyway

- You'll break the drivetrain, and quite possibly the engine too.

- You'll spend more flogging a horse that's coughing up blood than just buying a bigger horse

Thanks for your comments, but in all honesty my decision to run nitrous is made and this post was not if it’s a good idea or not but askig about the limitations and weak areas of tdi motors.

- If it was that simple everyone would be doing it

Eh?

Adding nitrous to petrol engines is safe and easy, yet for some reason its still the vast minority that do.

Fitting a rear mount turbo setup isn’t that hard either, but still don’t see everyone doing it, does that mean its not such a good idea either?

Yes the RV8 is expensive to tune seriously, but at the lower end you can get a nice lump for not much money. It does give you a smoother delivery, I'd wager a stock 4.2 / 4.6 would be a more usable prospect than a 200TDi tweaked to the ragged edge.

Have you tried looking for a 4.2 or 4.6 RV8 recently? I know there is always someone who knows someone, but when I’ve looked (online, Ebay and local breakers) they have going for stupid money if you can find them.

Don’t get me wrong I love the ol’ Rover V8. But I also accept its vast limitations and cost. They may be smooth but they simply in n/a form don’t deliver torque like a TD. And then there is still the mpg issue. While 24mpg may be an average for my tdi Disco on a run at sensible speeds over 30mpg is more realistic. No Rover V8’d Landy will get close to those figures. The only other option is to LPG it, but if you want someone to fit it with a certificate that’s another £2000+.

Also the TDI I’m talking about will drive like a mildly tuned one 85% of the time. And only develop more HP/torque when the nitrous is activated for when the extra grunt is required. It won’t be revving any higher it won’t be ragged.

You say this is for street use, I really hope this doesn't mean you're sad enough to be trying to build a TDi Land Rover to race Corsas and Saxos off the traffic lights

So are you telling me that all the other LR owners on this forum who put their foot down from time to time are sad losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Firstly – NO!

Secondly, it would still be fun to have a 2 ton off road orientated Landy to have a enough grunt to upset the majority of ricers and chavs and anyone else. But that’s just motoring really.

Thirdly already have two fast cars.

Even if that is the case, I'd still wager a nicely set-up (not big money) V8 would cross the line ahead of a tweaked up 200TDi

BUT I don’t have a V8 Land Rover and have no intent in buying one!!!!

And a tweaked tdi actually runs pretty good. When I got my 200tdi Allisported my brother had a stock 3.9 Vogue Range Rover Classic. Fair do it was an auto and was running on stock road biased rubber. My Disco is a 3 door with a LT77 5 speeder and at the time had 31.10.50R15 BFG A/T’s on it.

According to the butt meter (seat of your pants driving) the tdi felt a lot more lively and faster. So much so that my brother actually wouldn’t race me with his 3.9 V8. In all honesty I think if you pulled out on a straight bit of road and went from 5mph to 95mph then the tdi would have had the legs up until around 65-70mph and then the V8 would have been more on song and would have gotten to 90/95mph quicker.

Another case in point is last year touring Wales, my uncle has a TD5 Disco II, ok its stock but it statistically produces more power than a tdi. In the hills I could generally hold a gear higher that him and on the straights pull away faster. The tdi was out muscling the TD5.

just by virtue of being driveable. Probably return similar MPG too.

But I’d still be getting 24+mpg every day and 30mpg on the motorway.

I have hit 20mpg on a run with a 3.9 V8 in a 109. When I hook the speedo up I'll be able to measure the 4.6, I guestimate it's hitting about 15 on average with 37" tyres and very low gearing, although it has been known to creep towards 18-19 on a run. Higher gearing is in progress which may help. The fact there's not a single bit of clockwork, or Lucas electronics on it undoubtedly helps too.

That sounds like some good figures, but I suspect if you keep your foot in it 12-15mpg will be more the norm. That was certainly the case for the white V8 factory 90 we had.

OFF TOPIC

Got any pics of the 109 you can direct me at, sounds like one cool motor

These days there are so many better engines than anything LR made, when you can crate an LS or LT lump over from the states for a couple of K spending anything on fancy pants bits for a LR lump seems rather pointless. An LS1 will make 300+ out of the crate and will make it for 100,000 miles. In a cute little LR it might even manage 20+mpg thanks to DoD. We'll find out very soon when Jez pulls his finger out

I love the LS series of motors, have one sitting outside in my Camaro.

And yes I’ve looked at putting one in a LR. But I’d only do it to a Defender as I think part of the reason of doing would be lost if I used a Disco.

But this route would likely cost between 5 and 10 times what I’m looking at spending on my tdi.

BTW – DoD is that delivery on demand (or power on demand) because LS1’s don’t have that nor most of the LS2’s. I think some of the LQ iron blocked ones do. Could be wrong though.

Alternatively you could go the Marco Cosic route and go for a small, revvy 4-pot like the Rover 220 turbo stuck to a Disco MPi bellhousing.

Lol, but this still ain’t cheap and won’t produce the low end grunt which is my main goal.

Then there's any number of 20-years-more-modern engines from the likes of BMW, Audi, Lexus, Ford, etc. - have a scan through Practical Performance Car for stimulation.

Yeah, but come on seriously how much is it going to cost to buy the engine, buy the gearbox, modifiy the chassis, fit the darn thing, buy some form of ECU setup and fit it. Then there’s fuel/fuel tank and exhaust, cooling, transfer box and drive train.

As an idea they all sound good. But could you seriously recommend to someone that this is a viable option on a budget under £1000?

Lets assume that I only ever up to a 50 shot of nitrous and only get a PEAK increase in HP of 38bhp, although would probably see a lot more torque increase. That would still make it more powerful than a stock 4.0 RV8, with most likely more torque than a stock 4.6 V8 and probably faster than either because nitrous would offer the extra power/torque fairly evenly across the entire rpm band, thus producing more power more of the time.

No it won’t be the fastest

No it won’t be the ultimate

No its not trying to take anything from anyone or any V8

Bit it will be fun

Faster

More powerful

Cheap to buy

Retain stock driveability

Retain mid 24+mpg

I really can’t see the problem. Its not as if I’m popping over to someone elses house at night and tampering with their tdi engines to see if the blow up instead of leaving a new shiny crate V8 on their driveway.

It’s my vehicle. All I wanted was some info about the engine. But thanks anyway.

[The Hatt]

The maximum safe EGT on a Tdi is 720 deg C

Mo

Thanks

[FridgeFreezer]

First off - I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not trying to make you buy a Rover V8. Just trying to give some constructive comment on what you're trying to achieve. If you're determined that bolting NOS to a tractor engine is what you want to do, regardless of how much sense it may make, then that's cool.

Adding nitrous to petrol engines is safe and easy

Define safe, you yourself suggested it could be risky to buy a lower quality NOS setup.

Fitting a rear mount turbo setup isn’t that hard either, but still don’t see everyone doing it, does that mean its not such a good idea either?

See previous answer - you can bolt stuff together but it's getting the tune right, or at least safe, that's the issue.

Have you tried looking for a 4.2 or 4.6 RV8 recently? I know there is always someone who knows someone, but when I’ve looked (online, Ebay and local breakers) they have going for stupid money if you can find them.

Martin Toole has at least one, probably two 4.2's sat in his yard. He's on eBay (toolie.v8). Jules is breaking an LSE at the moment (check the classifieds)...

So are you telling me that all the other LR owners on this forum who put their foot down from time to time are sad losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, I'm saying that building a Land Rover to impress sad losers is kinda sad, if that is what you're doing

Secondly, it would still be fun to have a 2 ton off road orientated Landy to have a enough grunt to upset the majority of ricers and chavs and anyone else. But that’s just motoring really.

A 3.5 Range Rover towing a car trailer can beat most of them off the lights because most of them can't drive for toffee, they just know how to make lots of noise. Plus they've usually got four mates in the car eating KFC and drinking stella which doubles their 0-60 time.

That sounds like some good figures, but I suspect if you keep your foot in it 12-15mpg will be more the norm. That was certainly the case for the white V8 factory 90 we had.

Factory V8: De-tuned, carbed, with a distributor

My V8: MegaSquirt EFi running closed-loop with distributorless ignition. It will get better MPG by virtue of not being run by clockwork, being tuned better, and correcting itself on the fly. It's always going to get better MPG, foot down or not. The roughly measured 18mpg was towing a 2t trailer.

OFF TOPIC

Got any pics of the 109 you can direct me at, sounds like one cool motor

My classic restoration in the members' vehicles forum - count the rivets

BTW – DoD is that delivery on demand (or power on demand) because LS1’s don’t have that nor most of the LS2’s. I think some of the LQ iron blocked ones do. Could be wrong though.

We've been told the LS1 in the shed has DoD, also heard it called displacement on demand or cylinder shutdown. Quite cunning really.

Yeah, but come on seriously how much is it going to cost to buy the engine, buy the gearbox, modifiy the chassis, fit the darn thing, buy some form of ECU setup and fit it. Then there’s fuel/fuel tank and exhaust, cooling, transfer box and drive train.

As an idea they all sound good. But could you seriously recommend to someone that this is a viable option on a budget under £1000?

Depends, any worthwhile modern engine doesn't break down so they're not worth much, my cousin is a BMW nut and has watched more than one 4.4 V8 (X5 lump) go for under £300 from the local scrappy. It's only 'cos it's a bit heavy for an E44 3 Series that he's resisted. A MegaSquirt ECU will set you back another £300, if you're a bit handy you could have one in and running for a grand. Just an example, there's loads of others.

The Rover 220 twink actually makes more torque, and lower, than a 3.9 V8 as I believe Corrode Finger has looked into it (it was his daft project idea #273 IIRC ). Revvy isn't a bad thing, it just means you hold the gear much longer than you would with a TDi.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

but I suspect if you keep your foot in it 12-15mpg will be more the norm.

Yeah.

Basically your a pair of G*ts - I dream of the above

However pulling away from the lights 'sideways' with wheelspin (with 34s) is plain daft.... I know

But it scares the hell out of the chavs who were planning to "Cut im Up Like"

Not big, ....not clever ...but F fun

Nige

(Aged 12 )

[pugwash]

BTW – DoD is that delivery on demand (or power on demand) because LS1's don't have that nor most of the LS2's. I think some of the LQ iron blocked ones do. Could be wrong though.

We've been told the LS1 in the shed has DoD, also heard it called displacement on demand or cylinder shutdown. Quite cunning really.

Sorry john you've been misinformed mate- an LS1 certainly doesn't have bank shutdown (as in a certain other "make" of V8 ) on partial throttle or idle. LS1edit can't work with cylinder shutdown at all unless i've missed a whole chunk of the programme (which is entirely possible knowing me- it took me long enough to disable VATS!). Unless i'm very behind i don't beleive LS6, 7 or 9 are going to have this feature. Although to be fair its not exactly going to make a huge different to economy- it's not going to add 5mpg or anything- a corvette or firebird can already make ~26mpg on cruise and you aren't going to get much better than that that witha 5.7/6.0l engine.

Not really sure that the ongoing obsession with tuning Rover V8s and the like is when Ls1 have become so cheap to get into this country. 4L80e gearboxes (which you are NEVER going to blow up with a stock LS1) are cheap in the states and now easily controllable. The knowledge to build a conversion to link a 4L80e to a LT230 is also freely available and perfectly possible without a huge amount of machining. I rekcon with a little work you could get a very strong drivetrain into a LR for £2k which whilst it sounds like a lot, really isn't that much when you start talking about seriously tuning a rover V8 !

[Steve Hiatt]

You can buy and install an LS7 for less than some safari boys are spending on their Rovers. One competitor spent more having his supercharged engine rebuilt with a well known supplier than an LS7 costs new.

[The Hatt]

Define safe, you yourself suggested it could be risky to buy a lower quality NOS setup.

See WON

Martin Toole has at least one, probably two 4.2's sat in his yard. He's on eBay (toolie.v8). Jules is breaking an LSE at the moment (check the classifieds)...

But how much are these? £500 quid?

Plus at present I have nowhere to do an engine swap so would have to pay someone to do it or hire somewhere.

Then there’s still the mpg issue.

And after that money on Megasquirt or a carb setup and exhaust and fuelling.

I’m not a against V8’s AT ALL – I’m a total petrol head.

But I honestly believe for the vast majority of people (which includes me) swapping out a tdi for a V8 will cost more money to achieve and run than what I am proposing to do.

No, I'm saying that building a Land Rover to impress sad losers is kinda sad, if that is what you're doing

I have a 350bhp muscle car capable of topping 160mph.

A 3.5 Range Rover towing a car trailer can beat most of them off the lights because most of them can't drive for toffee,

Ok……

Factory V8: De-tuned, carbed, with a distributor

My V8: MegaSquirt EFi running closed-loop with distributorless ignition. It will get better MPG by virtue of not being run by clockwork, being tuned better, and correcting itself on the fly. It's always going to get better MPG, foot down or not. The roughly measured 18mpg was towing a 2t trailer.

No denying modern technology can improve efficiency. However I still don’t believe a 3.9 RV8 is as economical as a 2.5 TDI in the same vehicle.

We've been told the LS1 in the shed has DoD, also heard it called displacement on demand or cylinder shutdown. Quite cunning really.

Yes its very clever. However I first drove a LS1 in 1998 and have been involved with them ever since.

Never ever heard of a LS1 having it. As far as I know GM have not and have no intention on using this technology on there performance vehicles (Fbody & Vette).

I’m pretty sure some of the truck engines might have used something similar but only more recently. Truck engine are cast iron block versions of the LS with different cam and intake manifold. They are LQ4 and LQ9 depending on displacement. There is also a 5.3 LS4 found in some of GM’s fwd sedans.

Depends, any worthwhile modern engine doesn't break down so they're not worth much, my cousin is a BMW nut and has watched more than one 4.4 V8 (X5 lump) go for under £300 from the local scrappy. It's only 'cos it's a bit heavy for an E44 3 Series that he's resisted. A MegaSquirt ECU will set you back another £300, if you're a bit handy you could have one in and running for a grand. Just an example, there's loads of others.

Ok but a 4.4 BMW V8 is only 280bhp. LS1 still better.

But that aside fitting a BMW V8 to a tdi Land Rover will need a heck of a lot more work than you have stated.

Apart from needing the ability, tools and somewhere to actually do the swap (which many people don’t have)

You’d need to fab up engine mounts, attach it to the transmission somehow or buy something to fab in that works with the engine.

Some sort of ECU control, Megasquirt is certainly an option but has it been used on this engine before? I know the Jaguar V8 has proved problematic.

Then we have exhaust and exhaust manifolds

Cooling

Heating

And so on.

YES YES YES I believe it can be fitted and working on a modest budget, but unless you are a gifted mechanic with appropriate mechanically inclined mates and are able to get stuff cheap it really isn’t a viable option for most.

If you disagree then how about a deal. I bring over my Disco tdi with a £1000 cash and we can successfully swap in a modern V8 and get it running and running good with all the parts needed.

I’m serious here, doing a swap like this is beyond what I consider my ability and budget at this time, but if its really doable for the ease and cost you proclaim I WANT IT!

The Rover 220 twink actually makes more torque, and lower, than a 3.9 V8 as I believe Corrode Finger has looked into it (it was his daft project idea #273 IIRC ). Revvy isn't a bad thing, it just means you hold the gear much longer than you would with a TDi.

umm not too sure about this. Pretty sure the turbo wouldn’t be kicking in until over 2000rpm or higher. Stock is only 197bhp @ 6100rpm and 171 lb ft @ 2100.

Of course it can be tuned to produce more, but at low rpms a tdi is still going to make more torque.

[dollythelw]

See this is living up to the friendly forum tag that come up on Google….

easy tiger... I didnt think you (or anyone capable of walking and talking at the same time) would be dumb enough to try it but I suppose in the nanny state ethos I should have posted a full risk assessment, health risks, Environmental Impact assessment, legal disclaimer etc I intended to illustrate the physics behind it. If these are effects you hadnt thought of/arent aware of then I stand by my original comments......... do some more reseach!

Well from what I can tell the WON systems massively out perform NOS systems in reliability and performance. Plus NOS may be the “Daddies” but that doesn’t mean they are now with the times.

based on? Im a bit out of practice but Im not sure that the physics behind the combustion (or in fact the detonation) process has radically changed recently Ive used (and have plenty of friends) running WON kits on bikes and NOS kits with 8's, both applications required substantial mucking about to get the best out of them and I wouldnt suggest theres any real difference in the suppliers in terms of reliability, NOS stuff is very nicely finished but thats the only major difference Ive noticed ,

Any solution that offers substantial increases in horsepower and torque needs tailoring to prevent unwanted bangs - if it doesnt then the gains are not pushing it enough. Ive run gas on alcohol and petrol motors (not diesel yet but I could be tempted) but still figure Im nothing more than a rookie with it, you're speaking with a tone of experience and Im intreagued, how much blue bottle time do you have?

eh? Not building a tractor pulling machine. Just looking to improve performance of my ROAD going Disco without spending too much.

suck squeeze bang blow.. tractor pulling, horse and torque from diesel engines executed for drag starts - Tdi versus Nova at trafic lights - parallel possibly? agreed you dont have to chase ponies to the nth degree like the tractor boys do the principles could still be applied.

I really love the Cummins and would buy a Dodge Ram 2500 just for that engine. But I seriously can’t see buying & importanting an engine which weighs about 900lb and is probably too big for the engine bay is going to be cheaper than fitting a £600 WON kit….. :confused:

I'd love world peace and free fuel but thats not gonna happen either by the time this is over its going to cost you a shed load more than £600 IMO I'd put money on the fact I could squeeze a Cummins into the engine bay - just a bit of bent tin and some metal glue and its there

Theres lots of power available but unless its a very low tune motor out of the factory then only the first few ponies over a stock performance are cheap - its the tuners law of diminishing returns. With the dollar being as feeble as it is some things arent as expensive as you would guess Cummins 5.9 + 4L80E transmission Ebay LINKY but if its cheap ponies and it was my money I'd just go for a bargain L67 Gen II supercharged £350 Linky, tweak to 300BHP by changing the blower pulley for $40. Seafrieght is your friend to get things back into the UK.

I stand by my original sentiment - I genuinely wish you the best of luck with doing it - I think its commendible and would be a lot of fun to do, I just wanted to highlight that it may not be as simple and cheap as you appear to think it is

[The Hatt]

easy tiger... I didnt think you (or anyone capable of walking and talking at the same time) would be dumb enough to try it but I suppose in the nanny state ethos I should have posted a full risk assessment, health risks, Environmental Impact assessment, legal disclaimer etc I intended to illustrate the physics behind it. If these are effects you hadnt thought of/arent aware of then I stand by my original comments......... do some more reseach!

based on? Im a bit out of practice but Im not sure that the physics behind the combustion (or in fact the detonation) process has radically changed recently Ive used (and have plenty of friends) running WON kits on bikes and NOS kits with 8's, both applications required substantial mucking about to get the best out of them and I wouldnt suggest theres any real difference in the suppliers in terms of reliability, NOS stuff is very nicely finished but thats the only major difference Ive noticed ,

Any solution that offers substantial increases in horsepower and torque needs tailoring to prevent unwanted bangs - if it doesnt then the gains are not pushing it enough. Ive run gas on alcohol and petrol motors (not diesel yet but I could be tempted) but still figure Im nothing more than a rookie with it, you're speaking with a tone of experience and Im intreagued, how much blue bottle time do you have?

suck squeeze bang blow.. tractor pulling, horse and torque from diesel engines executed for drag starts - Tdi versus Nova at trafic lights - parallel possibly? agreed you dont have to chase ponies to the nth degree like the tractor boys do the principles could still be applied.

I'd love world peace and free fuel but thats not gonna happen either by the time this is over its going to cost you a shed load more than £600 IMO I'd put money on the fact I could squeeze a Cummins into the engine bay - just a bit of bent tin and some metal glue and its there

Theres lots of power available but unless its a very low tune motor out of the factory then only the first few ponies over a stock performance are cheap - its the tuners law of diminishing returns. With the dollar being as feeble as it is some things arent as expensive as you would guess Cummins 5.9 + 4L80E transmission Ebay LINKY but if its cheap ponies and it was my money I'd just go for a bargain L67 Gen II supercharged £350 Linky, tweak to 300BHP by changing the blower pulley for $40. Seafrieght is your friend to get things back into the UK.

I stand by my original sentiment - I genuinely wish you the best of luck with doing it - I think its commendible and would be a lot of fun to do, I just wanted to highlight that it may not be as simple and cheap as you appear to think it is

Thanks

Will report back once kit is installed, although won't be four a few months most likely as i have a diff and front axle to rebuild first.

[66gaza]

If by chance the engine goes south you can always put the NOS kit on the cummins. You don't have to import these from the states they are everywhere in the UK. If you think a 6BT is too big (they will fit BTW) you can put a 4BT in enstead, these are rarer but were used in industrial applications and marine.The 4bt marine engines are 250BHP/500FT/LBS in stock tune and can take much much more. 300 bhp is easily achieved in even a 4BT. You could proably get a 6BT off ebay with 210HP/520ft lbs out of a DAF 210Ti like I did.

Gaza

[FridgeFreezer]

I have a 350bhp muscle car capable of topping 160mph.

I'm sure your penis is huge muscle car is very nice but not sure how relevant that is to anything being discussed here.

If you disagree then how about a deal. I bring over my Disco tdi with a £1000 cash and we can successfully swap in a modern V8 and get it running and running good with all the parts needed.

You're missing something here - my time isn't free. I said with a bit of tinkering YOU could fit something nicer for £1k. A few favours from mates, a few eBay finds, a bit of ingenuity. If you're expecting to park it in someone's workshop and have it done then it won't be for £1k. People have done engine swaps and entire rebuilds under a tarpaulin on the drive or in the street, if you want it you can do it.

Some sort of ECU control, Megasquirt is certainly an option but has it been used on this engine before? I know the Jaguar V8 has proved problematic.

If it uses fuel, air, and sparks it can be done.

Anyway, back round to the topic at hand - we're starting to get a few bits of information about this so we can start to get an idea of where this might be going.

You've said you plan to spend roughly £600, is that all on the NOS kit or is it on other stuff like improving the lump's strength, tweaking the fuelling about, bigger intercooler, etc.?

You've also said you want more torque than a V8, is that just a peak bragging numbers or are you going for a useful torque curve?

You want to keep it doing 25-30mpg, do you have some mechanism to alter the fuelling for going fast and then drop back to more economical / EGT friendly levels for cruising about? (I don't really do diesels so not sure if there's a handy way of doing that with a mechanical injector pump?)

Did you say if you were doing this as a potentially engine-lunching experiment or if you wanted some longevity out of the lump?

...Oh and this is a friendly forum, we're trying to help aren't we? If you don't believe us go and start this same thread on Pirate4x4

[The Hatt]

I have a 350bhp muscle car capable of topping 160mph.

I'm sure your penis is huge muscle car is very nice but not sure how relevant that is to anything being discussed here.

Still the friendly forum I see....

I mention it because twice you've posted about me building a Land Rover to beat people at the traffic light grand prix's. This isn't the case because I have something much better for it and was simply pointing it out. And BTW how do you know I'm not a lady

You're missing something here - my time isn't free. I said with a bit of tinkering YOU could fit something nicer for £1k. A few favours from mates, a few eBay finds, a bit of ingenuity. If you're expecting to park it in someone's workshop and have it done then it won't be for £1k. People have done engine swaps and entire rebuilds under a tarpaulin on the drive or in the street, if you want it you can do it.

Well ok how much is your time?

But seriously, I don't have a driveway at present or a workshop and doing a major engine swap outside on the road would be illegal and stupid. Not too mention a lack of electricity and other resources.

Anyway, back round to the topic at hand - we're starting to get a few bits of information about this so we can start to get an idea of where this might be going.

You've said you plan to spend roughly £600, is that all on the NOS kit or is it on other stuff like improving the lump's strength, tweaking the fuelling about, bigger intercooler, etc.?

1. Yes the kit is about that, if I want a bottle warmer, progressive controller and installation it will cost more. However to start with I can manage without the bottle warmer (only £120 or so) and the progressive controller and intend to fit it myself.

2. Fuelling has already been tweaked and the Bosch injector pump has more tweaking ability with the smoke screw and other controls. WON also have a device which can replace the smoke screw to allow higher fuelling when the nitrous is activated.

3. Already got a bigger intercooler, although as I understand it nitrous is something like -128 when injected so I a guess this may not be so critical anyhow.

4. Was the whole point of this thread - NEED SOME HELP identifying the weak spots on the tdi engines. Where and how have people broken them. So far not a single post has pointed me at an example of where a piston has failed, a head cracked or anything. I've just had speculation and people telling me I'm pissing in the wind and should buy a V8.

You've also said you want more torque than a V8, is that just a peak bragging numbers or are you going for a useful torque curve?

Not want more torque, but it will likely produce more torque. Don't care about bragging numbers it it probably won't go on a dyno so won't ever know what they are.

As for usable power curve, well tdi's make peak power @ 4000rpm and peak torque @ 1800rpm. So if I can increase to torque over that rpm range which I believe nitrous will do it will be very usable.

You want to keep it doing 25-30mpg, do you have some mechanism to alter the fuelling for going fast and then drop back to more economical / EGT friendly levels for cruising about? (I don't really do diesels so not sure if there's a handy way of doing that with a mechanical injector pump?)

Well I reckon the current fuelling will be fine for at least a 25 shot and possibly a 50 shot. Running Simex 33" tyres (measure 34" tall) as a daily driver it offers a minimal of 24mpg average. I say minimal becuase the odometer is miles out due to the tyres, it may well be averaging nearer 28mpg.

This is with a full width intercooler, upped turbo boost and tweaked injector pump.

With the nitrous installed and OFF it will run 100% the same as it does now with the same mpg. At WOT with the nitrous on then depending on the shot it will use the same fuel as now but also nitrous. Only extra running cost is the nitrous.

WON also offer a device which replaces the smoke screw and ups the fuelling with nitrous activated. In this example it would probably use less fuel than now with the nitrous OFF and more fuel with it on when at WOT. So it would probably use more diesel, but only when using nitrous which won't be all the time, just as and when I want to use it or its needed.

Did you say if you were doing this as a potentially engine-lunching experiment or if you wanted some longevity out of the lump?

I have no intent of breaking the engine and will not be doing this for the benefit of others so I simply post back it broke at this level.

I am however looking to increase power/torque via a different method on a limited budget to the equipement I already have with the hope of out performing other methods.

Out performing means total cost, ease of modification as well as acceleration and driveability.

Sure if I had the money, ability, time and resources I'd probably buy a TD5 and fit all the Twisted Performance aftermarket tuning parts to it in the hope of seeing 200-220bhp and still retaining mid 20's mpg. But having looked into this I deem it a more complex, difficult and ultimately more expensive route for me to go.

The same follows for a V8 and I simply don't want/can't afford to use it if it only averages sub 20mpg all the time not just highway style driving.

And to be honest I first started on this train of thought buy looking at fitting a Jaguar 4.2 V8 to a Defender but after some research it appeared that I could find no one who had done this and that getting the Jaguar V8 to run without its ECU is very very difficult even more so if you want a manual gearbox, which ideally I do.

I then looked at a LS1 powered Defender. But after pricing this up decided that to do it properly was far too expensive.

So I then looked at making the most out of what I already have on a more modest and realistic budget.