Winch Sails, Do we need them with Synthetic rope?

[najw]

Just out of interest, would a synthetic rope still drop to the floor if the hook was still attached?

There is a lot of talk of rope breaking - which they do - but what about the bit the rope is attached to, such as strop, tree etc

On the subject of helmets we are currently thinking about making them mandatory in next year's Howlin Wolf series - you can have your say/vote on that topic:

HERE

[Guest WALFY]

Just out of interest, would a synthetic rope still drop to the floor if the hook was still attached?

There is a lot of talk of rope breaking - which they do - but what about the bit the rope is attached to, such as strop, tree etc

On the subject of helmets we are currently thinking about making them mandatory in next year's Howlin Wolf series - you can have your say/vote on that topic:

HERE

If the plasma breaks and the end with the hook starts to fly around then either the hook has given way or the tree strop has given out. If it's the hook then you can't counter that sort of threat unless you make it compulsary to attach a safety line from the tree strop to the first foot of the plasma rope. If it's the tree strop that's broken then that will flail around and act as a sail and slow it down considerably. I competed at an event back along when a BRAND NEW strop broke. It was fitted to a hi profile veh and it totaly surprised the driver. Without being derogatory he lost a bit of confidence in the kit for the rest of the day. Not surprising either. This goes to show that even brand new kit and used in a sensible way still fails. You can't counter that.

The only way to stop plasma braking is to set stages that only use straight pulls and the area is clear of all debris that could damage the plasma. This is totaly unfeasable, and would we want to compete in an event like that?

[FridgeFreezer]

The reasoning we use in the club is that it's far easier to have one rule for everyone, then no-one can argue.

So, whatever's on your winch, you should be using a sail & gloves. No discussion. Easy.

[Paul Wightman]

So 7 people have voted for compulsory use of a winch sail, could they explain why?

As has already been pointed out is has been proved the size and weight of blanket we use has very little effect on steel rope let alone synthetic.

Fridge, surely education would be better? The use of a winch sail is not going to protect the uneducated/stupid from themselves or others from their actions.

Ban the use of winches on play days, only marshals allowed to perform winching but then not every marshal is capable of/should be allowed to operate a winch.

[Guest WALFY]

The reasoning we use in the club is that it's far easier to have one rule for everyone, then no-one can argue.

So, whatever's on your winch, you should be using a sail & gloves. No discussion. Easy.

Not wanting to get involved in club politics. Does the specified sail effectively dampen both plasma and SWR. Prob not. The wire rope model would have to be some weight to be effective. Do you specify different models of sail for different ropes used?

[alan kemp]

The reasoning we use in the club is that it's far easier to have one rule for everyone, then no-one can argue.

So, whatever's on your winch, you should be using a sail & gloves. No discussion. Easy.

Maybe we should include gloves in a poll, I am an engineer and I dont use them for work, ever. I dont like using them, I have had more near misses wearing gloves than I care to mention. I would prefer it to be a personal choice.

We did some testing on the new hydraulic winches and deliberately snapped several ropes whilst anchored to some heavey equipment. Plasma does store enery, it breaks within a meter of the fairlead and travelled the full 50 meters before it stopped. A sail at the hook end would have made no difference. In defence of my "no sail" vote, I have never had the car so solidly anchored that I could replicate the breaks in the field, I usually know when its going to break..

[alan kemp]

Not wanting to get involved in club politics. Does the specified sail effectively dampen both plasma and SWR. Prob not. The wire rope model would have to be some weight to be effective. Do you specify different models of sail for different ropes used?

I think the sail is supposed to weigh 1 kg, the pockets are for adding weight.

[Daan]

I usually know when its going to break..

I know at least one time you didnt, Alan...

I think they are a neccesarry evil, even if it was to get insurance cover for an event. The same discussion has been going round (the houses as usualy) with regards to the Tay event. I think the final word was that there was a risk assesment that stated you need them. I am sure mr T will come along shortly.

It is true that the they do not always help, as it really depends were the rope breaks and were the sail is at the moment of breaking. But I have certainly seen Plasma ropes flying throught the air. As has been mentioned, if there is a flexible link in the system (such as a bending tree), it could certainly turn nasty.

My 2p anyway. Daan

[FridgeFreezer]

Fridge, surely education would be better? The use of a winch sail is not going to protect the uneducated/stupid from themselves or others from their actions.

There's lots of factors:

- We have a responsibility as a club to promote safety, so we have to tell people to use safety equipment where appropriate, even if it may not be the most effective thing in the world. It makes the punters aware of the dangers, and covers the club if something goes bad.

- The one-rule-for-all just makes life easier and cuts down arguments. If you're marshalling and you see someone winching, you know they should be using gloves & a sail without having to go over and check what type of rope they're using.

- With people & trucks buzzing round at a play-day, it's quite handy to have the sail if only as a marker. Even then, some people seem to have trouble seeing them

- Some of our members are challenge drivers with challenge trucks and spend every play day testing the limits, getting stuck and recovering themselves. There is little point in a marshal following them round all day when they're more than capable of looking after themselves. As long as they're doing it properly and not spreading bad habits, everyone's happy.

- You can't tell stupid people, they're stupid. The rules are in the drivers briefing, club newsletter & website, and they've signed on the line - if they don't abide, that's their own stupid fault. If they're not following the rules, then they get b*ll*cked or asked to leave. Simple.

- In response to Walfy's question, no we don't specify. Frankly, there's a limit to everything - it's about reasonable precautions. We are a non-comp family club, the only "extreme" winching that goes on is the regular crowd of challenge boys who sort themselves out and are well behaved and know the rules. If anyone else manages to get *that* stuck, it's the marshals who'll be recovering them anyway.

[mickeyw]

get rid of them. i also think....

ban steel rope on events and then you'll not need to use blankets, with the exception of wiching across tracks. simple.

and before evryone starts on me about the price of plasma etc, dont bother. be honest, what would a winch blanket do to slow down a steel cable that has just snapped and heading toward you. answer: very little.

what cost more? synthetic limbs or synthetic rope?

this is the 21st century, the sport has evolved and the day of steel cable is behind us.

i'm talking about safety, not ease of useage.

Technology may be advancing, and I accept there may be a safety issue involved, but some competitors do not have cash advancing at the same speed. Plasma is still out of reach for many of us who compete on a limited budget (no strengthened shafts or uber modded winches). We have broken a the odd wire cable and in each case, as said elswhere in this thread, it broke within a few feet of the fairlead, and with little drama. You can buy an awful lot of wire ropes for the cost of a plasma.

Ban the use of winches on play days, only marshals allowed to perform winching but then not every marshal is capable of/should be allowed to operate a winch.

Where else is a the up and coming competitor going to practice winching techniques? I would not want learners getting something wrong in a comp. Yes I would hope a marshall would capable of giving advice, I too have seen less than safe winch usage at play days. It's a difficult call.

I used to be under the impression that one purpose of a sail was to slow down flying winch hooks/tow points that had become detached, now I'm not so sure if that is a valid purpose, given where breakages seem to occur.

The visibility issue is, I think, still valid. If you have to winch across a track it helps visibility to other drivers and bystanders.

Michael

[Andy-T]

Hi,

The answer to this thread is real simple.

The event organisers have a duty of care & responsibility to insure that risks are reduced to a minimum.

If this means insisting on winch sails for whatever reasons must be used on any type of winch line/cable then them are the rules!

So, if the event you want to attend has rules that you do not agree with the choice is simple - follow them or don't attend.

Personal opinions are just that, personal, we all have them and are free to express them as we see fit - however rules is rules and we either follow them or just don't play.

My personal opinion for what it is worth is that all lines should have some sort of sail used to create awareness that a winch is being used - general warning flag would be a more apt description.

A. Thomlinson.

[Ced]

As written before, I think a permanent rolled blanket on a rope is acceptable, thats why I voted on it.

It doesn't hurt anyone beeing there, and it can straight away be used to protect the rope on sharp edges.

If it's not there, you will not protect your rope, because it takes time to take one.

And, when crossing roads, it's there aswell...........

Having it in the middle, doesn't make sense and is dangerous for the co.

I refuse to doe it when I'm co-driving ..........

Imaging trying to do this when the car climbs a steep bank, what kind of danger is the co going through ..........

I agree on Steff's firts aid kit, I also lost a part of a finger, squeezed between a cable and a bumper.

I can imagine what will be going trough your head when this happens in the middle nowhere .............

But, as Steff, i'm also a wussie

Concerning helmets, here in Belgium and Holland, we are always oblieged to wear them during comps, and why not ??

I don't see a down side on it !

[Chris Abel]

Hi,

The answer to this thread is real simple.

The event organisers have a duty of care & responsibility to insure that risks are reduced to a minimum.

If this means insisting on winch sails for whatever reasons must be used on any type of winch line/cable then them are the rules!

So, if the event you want to attend has rules that you do not agree with the choice is simple - follow them or don't attend.

Personal opinions are just that, personal, we all have them and are free to express them as we see fit - however rules is rules and we either follow them or just don't play.

My personal opinion for what it is worth is that all lines should have some sort of sail used to create awareness that a winch is being used - general warning flag would be a more apt description.

A. Thomlinson.

I work in the house construction industry, constantly writing risk assessments & method statements, looking at the way we work and how we can make improvements making the workplace safer.

I started this pole because I'm concerned for the safety of my co-driver and others who are potentially at risk from the use of winch sails. I do not want to start writing Risk assessments and Method statements for what we get up to at the weekends because from the HSE's point of view what we do brake all the rules anyway.

I do see your point Andy and yes a sail is a good idea to indicate that a winch line is in use. However the level of risk imposed on the co-driver when repositioning this sail can in most situations outweighs the reason to using a sail in the first place.

There is an even greater risk imposed on the co-driver if the winch sail is to pass through the fairlead, removing the blanket from the drum involves the co-drivers hands in a very dangerous place with the driver flicking the winch backwards and forwards to try to remove it.

In the heat of the competition you have to consider the effects of mental and physical fatigue, removing that sail from the drum could result in the loss of a limb with a flick of the switch in the wrong direction.

I would like to see:

Sails (warning Flag) carried on vehicles but only used if winching across a track, otherwise they are not needed (unless you're using wire rope).

[rugratnav]

I think the sail is supposed to weigh 1 kg, the pockets are for adding weight.

According to MSA rules the winch sail should weigh 1kg BUT

1) I have attended many events AWDC / Tay / Bulldog / 90 degree / MORC and have never seen anyone weigh them yet

2) If you would like to weigh the sail you got at 90 degree you will find it only weighs about 800 grams, which is less than the weight required by the MSA rules the competition was set out to.

I have not posted this to upset or offend any

My personal opinion is that we should use sails merely as a marker for spectators or even marshals, I do agree that on synthetic ropes they don't really need to be used except as a marker.

[simon red90]

... I started this pole because I'm concerned for the safety of my co-driver and others who are potentially at risk from the use of winch sails....

....I would like to see:

Sails (warning Flag) carried on vehicles but only used if winching across a track, otherwise they are not needed (unless you're using wire rope).

...we would like to see.

[Orgasmic Farmer]

me too

[discojmz]

how many of your wear eye protection during challenge events or otherwise? polycarb safety specs or whatever?

I reckon even if synthetic rope will only bruise skin, i bet it could easily have an eye out during one of these 50ft recoils that have been mentioned.

safety eyewear would also of course protect from branches, mud, dust, all sorts.

having had a piece of steel wire dug out of my eyeball in A&E and ever since having a hole that dust etc can get trapped in, I find inexpensive safety specs (£3.50 pulsafe ones in clear and yellow) invaluable.

just a thought

[Andy-T]

Hi,

I fully understand all points of view, however, the buck stops with the person, or persons, whose name/s is/are on the extensive list of documents required to be signed off in order for an event to take place.

We discuss in detail as a group the neccessary measures required to feel comfortable organising our event.

At present this clearly states that winch sails will be required during all winching operations at all events organised by the Scotia Winch Challenge Club.

The sail must be freely moveable/removeable from the line at all times, it must also be positioned about the middle of the exposed line - this is how it must be to compete on our events!

We review all these measures/regulations every year.

This is at present generally an unregulated sport all organisers are free to impose any rules & regulations they see fit.

As competitors you are free to support/attend any competition YOU see fit!

WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE EVERY COMPETITOR THAT STARTS ONE OF OUR EVENTS FINISH IT WITHOUT INJURY - SAFETY IS OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY!

Be under no illusion, if I had my way the list of safety measures would be much increased!

Andy Thomlinson.

Chairman SWCC.

[simon red90]

how many of your wear eye protection during challenge events or otherwise? polycarb safety specs or whatever?

I reckon even if synthetic rope will only bruise skin, i bet it could easily have an eye out during one of these 50ft recoils that have been mentioned.

safety eyewear would also of course protect from branches, mud, dust, all sorts.

having had a piece of steel wire dug out of my eyeball in A&E and ever since having a hole that dust etc can get trapped in, I find inexpensive safety specs (£3.50 pulsafe ones in clear and yellow) invaluable.

just a thought

before i offend you i fully understand and appreciate what you are talking about and being an engineer i too have been in a&e more times than i would like to to have material scrapped off my eyeball surface. it is not pleasant.

now my reply, come on, if this thread keeps going off on what protection we could really do with to ensure safelt we'll be wrapped in rubber wet suits wearing snorkels, masks, and condoms.

i am taking a reasable assumtion that all the participants know the various risks involved in our sport. chris was trying to eliminate one of them, not make up a million means to safety.

although i would say that is a competitor wanted to wear any such safety equipment, i would fully respect and agree with such usage.

[Andy-T]

how many of your wear eye protection during challenge events or otherwise? polycarb safety specs or whatever?

I reckon even if synthetic rope will only bruise skin, i bet it could easily have an eye out during one of these 50ft recoils that have been mentioned.

safety eyewear would also of course protect from branches, mud, dust, all sorts.

having had a piece of steel wire dug out of my eyeball in A&E and ever since having a hole that dust etc can get trapped in, I find inexpensive safety specs (£3.50 pulsafe ones in clear and yellow) invaluable.

just a thought

I agree with your observation and this is just one example of a fair and reasonable addition to the rules!

So, full body armour, steel toecapped safety footwear, a 30ft exclusion zone while any winching operations are taking place.

No water crossings deeper than 4", drowning depth!

No climbs/slopes steep enough to be considered lifting operations - as we all know that the winches we use are designed/certified for pulling & not lifting!

Need I continue?

AT.

[discojmz]

all I asked was if anyone 'does' wear them. merely a pondering

ive long been of the opinion that motorcyclists for example shouldnt be made to wear helmets... anyone who doesnt it's their own lookout. we should be responsible for our selves!!

but I do also see that as an events organiser, there is a duty of care that must be observed

[Nobbymogs]

ive long been of the opinion that motorcyclists for example shouldnt be made to wear helmets

am i seeing this correct or has the fosters kicked in a bit early

lets get back on topic

Nobby

[jericho]

I started this pole because I'm concerned for the safety of my co-driver and others who are potentially at risk from the use of winch sails.

I do see your point Andy and yes a sail is a good idea to indicate that a winch line is in use. However the level of risk imposed on the co-driver when repositioning this sail can in most situations outweighs the reason to using a sail in the first place.

As an occasional co-driver,Chris's comments sum up my view completely.

The requirement to keep a winch sail positioned at the centre of a line throughout a pull exposes the co-driver to more danger than any other operation in the normal course of competition.

Such a requirement cannot be called a safety measure - it is an actual introduction of danger.

[alan kemp]

If we have to keep them, and I suppose we will, where can I get that ball I have seen that prevents the sail from going through the fair lead. Something lightweight from a fishing trawler perhaps?

[white90]

Chassis end (front) radius arm bush Alan fits ideally