Landcruiser Axles

[Bowie69]

TBH they'd probably cope with a normal unshielded splice as the amount of exposed unshielded wire will be relatively small. Some manufacturers run unshielded wire for VR sensors, EDIS works happily with unshielded wire.

Interesting.... might be easier than first throught then....

From a legal POV, if a car has ABS, I am guessing you can't remove it and retro fit a non-ABS system... or disable the ABS part of the system... anyone know for sure?

Nicks90 - you don't have a linky for the Oz forum thread with TLC axles and a LR do you?

[Timmy511]

i'm pretty sure i read on an Oz forum that the landcruiser front axle is pretty much a straight fit on a LR.

the radius arms are the same distance apart on the axle casing, the arms are also the same length and slot into the existing mounts on the LR chassis and the spring seats are in the right place and just need LR spring cups bolting in their place.

Is this correct?

if so, its pretty much an easy swap.

if thats true then, ding dong hello landcruiser! ill just buy a rot box and break it, especially now ive had another letter from the council about me working on my landy on teh drive! bloody neighbours.

theres a pair of G wagen axles on ebay atm, but the steering arms look the wrong way round to fit landrover set up. are they?

[Orgasmic Farmer]

G wagen fitment is NOT straightforward. i bought one to swap the axles to my Disco and ended up fitting Nissan Patrol ones. The G Wagen is still sat under the hedge. Main problem with the G is the central rear diff (but the Nissan has the same issue) and lack of rear disc brakes. Didn't get as far as checking the steering issues but I know its been done so it must be possible. See my post on here for fittment of Nissan axles to give you some inspiration

LINK

[Daan]

6: We are comparing a £500 pound unknown heap of rust with a fully rebuilt axle with new internals. It is a similar comparison with your engine: if it is finished you can rebuild it for say 2K, or you can drag some heap of ebay, hoping it is any good. Choose cake and eat it.

Not neccesarily knocking the whole Idea of swapping axles, I might decide on my next car to go for something non landy, but there are many reasons to stick with what you have.

[pugwash]

6: We are comparing a £500 pound unknown heap of rust with a fully rebuilt axle with new internals. It is a similar comparison with your engine: if it is finished you can rebuild it for say 2K, or you can drag some heap of ebay, hoping it is any good. Choose cake and eat it.

ahh your thinking in terms of landrovers though- you can be 95% certain that any 80 series landcruser axle will be in excellent condition both internally and externally- they just don't go wrong unless someone likes me starts to play with them lol Most cruisers are main stealer maintained (or better- my cruiser was serviced by a rolls royce specialist!) so the work is at least done to a reasonable standard and regularly.

even if you budgeted to replace every seal and bearing on the whole axle with OEM parts you wouldn't spend much more than £200 on one axle.

[bishbosh]

Interesting.... might be easier than first throught then....

From a legal POV, if a car has ABS, I am guessing you can't remove it and retro fit a non-ABS system... or disable the ABS part of the system... anyone know for sure?

Nicks90 - you don't have a linky for the Oz forum thread with TLC axles and a LR do you?

I spoke to the SVA chappie about this a while ago. He said "but why would you want to!!!?"

You'll have fun with the modern MOT though as the tester will be looking for the ABS light to go through its little routine as described on the computer print out crib sheet they get nowadays.

IIRC I think there wasn't an SVA issue about replacing the ABS with a non ABS system (e.g. from a Disco) but give them a call and ask - they really are helpful. The number is in the definitive Bobtail thread.

[FridgeFreezer]

ahh your thinking in terms of landrovers though

Very true, the Volvos are a similar experience - every nut & bolt comes undone cleanly, all the internals are in top condition, and I don't think we've actually done a wheel bearing due to wear yet (we change them as a matter of course when fitting the disc conversion). It's a different world, one where things are engineered properly. It'll never catch on

[Turbocharger]

To further this interesting debate, nobody's mentioned weight yet. Portals are HEAVY (even though it's weight in the right place) and we've all seen Suz*kis skip over stuff that a LR dives into nose-first and sticks.

As several people above mentioned, the bolt-on and staged upgrading of LR axles suits me because I don't trust my metal-gluing and the ones I've got suit my cashflow better...

[FridgeFreezer]

To further this interesting debate, nobody's mentioned weight yet. Portals are HEAVY

Volvo front weighs 150kg, the rear 130kg, Mogs are nearly twice that. You make it up to a certain extent by gaining bigger tyres and hence lower ground pressure.

[Turbocharger]

This is a Landcruiser thread so we won't get into the portal vs non-portal debate, but even offsetting weight with low ground pressure isn't enough for high performance, you still have to accelerate it (and bigger tyres with more rotational inertia make this worse, not better...)

I'm not sure which side of this particular fence I sit, but I like to discuss both sides here.

[FridgeFreezer]

offsetting weight with low ground pressure isn't enough for high performance, you still have to accelerate it (and bigger tyres with more rotational inertia make this worse, not better...)

First off we need to know how much LR axles weigh to make any meaningful comparison. I've had a google but can't find anything useful. It would be interesting to see how the different axles stack up, not only from a performance point of view but also for suspension considerations.

Bigger tyres mean more rotational inertia, but I would think the gearing drop makes up for most of that - from memory my gearing works out similar to a RR on 205's. As far as the engine is concerned, the load it sees is the same whether you have huge tyres and massive reduction or stock diffs and small tyres. The brakes will see a difference as they don't have the benefit of reduction, but that's a different discussion and my brakes are better than stock LR.

Another question is did someone who owns a TDi Land Rover just use the term "high performance"?

[Turbocharger]

Right. [rolls sleeves up]

The gearing will offset the additional load to the engine, in the same way that you change down for hills so that the torque of the engine is equal (or greater, in V8 land) to the extra load. However, the power dissipation is still capped by the engine's output, so you go (and accelerate) slower. The same is true with extra inertia (weight or rotational mass) - your gearing is lower but you still go slower if you've got to spin up four flywheels first. I hadn't thought about brakes but I remember them getting worse when I put 750s on my standard Series.

Getting back towards the topic, if a truck was built as a racecar is then every part has to justify its weight through performance. I suspect the clearance and unbreakability would win through for portals and Rover items are lighter but don't have either of the above. If a Jap axle has the same clearance (give or take) of a Rover axle on the same 35s but doesn't break, is that worth the extra(?) weight - if there is any?

Anyway, what're you doing posting at 2am - just got back from the petrol station?

[FridgeFreezer]

If a Jap axle has the same clearance (give or take) of a Rover axle on the same 35s but doesn't break, is that worth the extra(?) weight - if there is any?

I'd say yes, I'd also say you can go up a couple of tyre sizes over whatever the Rover will cope with, so you gain there too.

[plasticbadger]

Right. [rolls sleeves up]

The gearing will offset the additional load to the engine, in the same way that you change down for hills so that the torque of the engine is equal (or greater, in V8 land) to the extra load. However, the power dissipation is still capped by the engine's output, so you go (and accelerate) slower. The same is true with extra inertia (weight or rotational mass) - your gearing is lower but you still go slower if you've got to spin up four flywheels first. I hadn't thought about brakes but I remember them getting worse when I put 750s on my standard Series.

Getting back towards the topic, if a truck was built as a racecar is then every part has to justify its weight through performance. I suspect the clearance and unbreakability would win through for portals and Rover items are lighter but don't have either of the above. If a Jap axle has the same clearance (give or take) of a Rover axle on the same 35s but doesn't break, is that worth the extra(?) weight - if there is any?

Anyway, what're you doing posting at 2am - just got back from the petrol station?

Getting back on topic, kind of, you raise a couple of points that I feel I need to answer -

The Landcruiser rear diff is considerably larger than the landrover one (I think the rover diff uses a 7 1/2" ring gear, while I think the LC one is 9") this reduces clearance by about 1" under the diff, meaning I only have the same diff clearance with my 37" tyres as somebody with 35" tyres and a rover axle.

The LC axles are quite a lot heavier than LR, I don't know how much, but I can pick a LR rear axle and 2 people can't pick up a LC front axle. I would say LR axles are about 80kg rear, 100kg front, while LC axles are 100kg + rear, 150kg front. But then steel is heavier than chocolate....

The brakes point is a good one and why axle swaps are better than upgraded internals. The LC brakes are huge compared to LR ones.

And again axles swaps can be picked to provide gear ratio improvements. Fridge on his 37" tyres is like running 205s on a RR, while my 4.11 diffs give me the same as a RR on 265/75 tyres.

[Bush65]

Getting back on topic, kind of, you raise a couple of points that I feel I need to answer -

The Landcruiser rear diff is considerably larger than the landrover one (I think the rover diff uses a 7 1/2" ring gear, while I think the LC one is 9") this reduces clearance by about 1" under the diff, meaning I only have the same diff clearance with my 37" tyres as somebody with 35" tyres and a rover axle.

The LC axles are quite a lot heavier than LR, I don't know how much, but I can pick a LR rear axle and 2 people can't pick up a LC front axle. I would say LR axles are about 80kg rear, 100kg front, while LC axles are 100kg + rear, 150kg front. But then steel is heavier than chocolate....

The brakes point is a good one and why axle swaps are better than upgraded internals. The LC brakes are huge compared to LR ones.

And again axles swaps can be picked to provide gear ratio improvements. Fridge on his 37" tyres is like running 205s on a RR, while my 4.11 diffs give me the same as a RR on 265/75 tyres.

Rover crown wheel is 8-1/2", Landcruiser rear is about 9-1/4". 80 and 100 series Landcruiser front crown wheel is 8" (but stronger than Rover because of hypoid design vs spiral bevel.

[Bowie69]

i'm pretty sure i read on an Oz forum that the landcruiser front axle is pretty much a straight fit on a LR.

the radius arms are the same distance apart on the axle casing, the arms are also the same length and slot into the existing mounts on the LR chassis and the spring seats are in the right place and just need LR spring cups bolting in their place.

Is this correct?

Think I came across this post, unfortunately they are referring to Nissan axles.... I think this is it: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic135535-0-asc-30.php

Lot of Toy/Nissan swaps going on over there it seems...

[Bush65]

Think I came across this post, unfortunately they are referring to Nissan axles.... I think this is it: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic135535-0-asc-30.php

Lot of Toy/Nissan swaps going on over there it seems...

Landcruiser radius arms won't fit the rover chassis mount. It is possible to put the rover brackets ao cruiser axle housings. The spring perches are further out and need to be changed anyway.

The chassis end of nissan radius arms are compatible with rover mounts, and the length of the arms, from centre of axle is close enough to the same.

[nicks90]

so basically use a nissan front axle and a cruiser 80 rear axle.

both relatively easy swaps and give 4.1 diff ratios and possibly a rear locker if you get the right cruiser axle.

hmmmmmmmm. certainly seems cheaper than upgrading rover axles with aftermarket shafts and cvs.

[FridgeFreezer]

hmmmmmmmm. certainly seems cheaper than upgrading rover axles with aftermarket shafts and cvs.

Burn the heretic!

[will_warne]

so basically use a nissan front axle and a cruiser 80 rear axle.

both relatively easy swaps and give 4.1 diff ratios and possibly a rear locker if you get the right cruiser axle.

hmmmmmmmm. certainly seems cheaper than upgrading rover axles with aftermarket shafts and cvs.

This does seem to be a pretty standard route in Oz. However, they do have a few more Jap truck's lying about

I think the weight issue is an interesting one as unsprund weight is rarely you're friend. True big tyres and heavy rims won't help the situation but if you can have a lighter axle that's re-engineered to be stronger rather than one taken from a much heavier vehicle then you are going to be better off. I'd be really interested to see some exact figures for axle weights as you see a lot of "these are heavy" / "these are light" comments floating around without much in the way of figures. Rover axles seem to come in at about 100 kg front / 80 kg rear but what do Salisbury, 101, LC, Nissan, G-Wagon, C303, Mog all weight?

[FridgeFreezer]

Pay attention Will

Volvo front weighs 150kg, the rear 130kg, Mogs are nearly twice that.

And please keep it in perspective - it's a Land Rover not an F1 car, even if you do run heavier axles it doesn't make much difference to what we do, unless you want to start banging on about the effect of big heavy tyres, diff guards, etc. as well. Mogs or Simcas I'd agree that you're going to have to look at your suspension setup to try to keep things under control, but I'm running Volvos on what is basically a standard setup and they are fine.

[plasticbadger]

I'd be really interested to see some exact figures for axle weights as you see a lot of "these are heavy" / "these are light" comments floating around without much in the way of figures. Rover axles seem to come in at about 100 kg front / 80 kg rear but what do Salisbury, 101, LC, Nissan, G-Wagon, C303, Mog all weight?

As I said above, i'd estimate 80 series LC to be 100kg rear 150kg front. So 20kg/50kg heavier than LR respectively.

To put that in perspective my steel beadlock wheels and 37" tyres weigh 75kg each and standard fitment Discovery wheels weigh about 30kg each. So I already have 80kg per axle more un-sprung weight than standard before you even get into 2kg diff gaurd, 5kg steering gaurd, etc...

Like Fridge says, lets keep it realistic - we're talking mostly about 2000kg vehicles travelling under 30mph! For comp safari stuff I'd understand, but for challenge/general offroad and even trophy comps does 50 to 100kg more un-sprung weight really matter?

[will_warne]

Fridge - I saw that one but I was thinking about having a list somewhere so you could compare directly

I'd agree that we aren't running F1 cars here but, in many ways, unsprung weight is just as important. We may only be doing low speed but a vehicle with wheels that follow the terrain better on, say, a hill climb will drive it more easily. I'd agree we don't make our lives easy by fitting massive heavy wheels and tyres - I've not weighted my boggers + stazworks but they're every bit of 50 kgs.....

[tobes]

Slightly OT but THIS website has some useful info, not axle weights but has track widths/ground clearance etc

[gibbon]

so basically use a nissan front axle and a cruiser 80 rear axle.

both relatively easy swaps and give 4.1 diff ratios and possibly a rear locker if you get the right cruiser axle.

Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but which Landcruiser models had lockers in the front and rear axles?