flatback90 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 as the title says... am i being a little silly thinking about this? asides the engineering side to get it to fit what would you do about fueling would it have to be upped or would the turbo settings be close enough? anyone done it? seems a good idea in principle for, say, a challenge truck that needs grunt from zero? just wondering what the collective brains thought about it? (i did a search but all i got was them stupid leccy chargers they sell on fleabay!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe 90 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 we use jackson super chargers at work but only on petrol cars, getting the pump to fuel right under load will be a big problem. you can do anything if you throw lot of cash at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hi off topic but if its extra power you are in search of have you considered LPG , yes I know its a diesel!, also give a cleaner burn etc and it has already been done or is this the challenge. regards Ian Ashcroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatback90 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hi off topic but if its extra power you are in search of have you considered LPG , yes I know its a diesel!, also give a cleaner burn etc and it has already been done or is this the challenge. regards Ian Ashcroft already looking at that option! its just the fact that superchargers dont have any lag but what worries me is the fueling side! its that jerry thurstons fault! i was idly dreaming away at petebog show and saw the superchrged petrol engine they were putting into the 109"109mph project and my fertile imagination thought hmmmm that would be nice on a 200tdi no lag and a lovely whine like mad max........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest otchie1 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 already looking at that option! its just the fact that superchargers dont have any lag but what worries me is the fueling side! its that jerry thurstons fault! i was idly dreaming away at petebog show and saw the superchrged petrol engine they were putting into the 109"109mph project and my fertile imagination thought hmmmm that would be nice on a 200tdi no lag and a lovely whine like mad max........ Superchargers cost crank power to run though whereas turbos spin for free. Superchargers are great if you want quick response, spend most of your time at full throttle and don't care about pumping loses 'cos you have excess power anyway. Turbos are actually useful on the road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Bob Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Would adding an inline "little" turbo not have the same effect? As in no lag for the litttle turbo to kck in then the standard turbo would kick in later...? Am I talking sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Would adding an inline "little" turbo not have the same effect? As in no lag for the litttle turbo to kck in then the standard turbo would kick in later...? Am I talking sense? IIRC that's known as a Compound Turbo, some of the HGV engines use a similar set up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballrovers Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 we use jackson super chargers at work but only on petrol cars, getting the pump to fuel right under load will be a big problem. you can do anything if you throw lot of cash at it. Hi Joe. How is that a problem with the fuel pump??? I have had the same thoughts fitting a SC14 ( wich are only 150-250£ from the scrappie) from a toyota to a 200TDI so it would be nice to know what I have missed on the fueling side. Regards Ole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 i thought about doing this, i was going to have the super charger blowing through the turbo and use an electro clutch on the super charger to control when it comes on, basically when the turbo is at full boost you dont need the super charger running as the point is to reduce lag etc not get lots more boost, this could be controlled quite easily with a pressure switch controlling the clutch, the only thing with this system is you need some sort of change over flap so the turbo doesnt have to suck through the supercharger when the supercharger isnt running, its nothing special or complicated but would just need a bit of thought. also the fuel pump wont need any adjusting as it is already sensing the boost pressure and fuels the engine accordingly, all you are doing is getting more boost earlier (not waiting for the turbo) which means it will deliver more fuel therefore more power sooner. i was all set to do this to mine but i happened to stumble across a vnt turbo so i am going down that route instead, i will be very interetsted to see how you get on cheers martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatback90 Posted September 26, 2009 Author Share Posted September 26, 2009 Superchargers cost crank power to run though whereas turbos spin for free. Superchargers are great if you want quick response, spend most of your time at full throttle and don't care about pumping loses 'cos you have excess power anyway. Turbos are actually useful on the road hmm seems my knowledge of superchargers is somewhat limited. i didnt relise that they would rob crank power to drive themselves an that they have high pumping losses..... propane inj is looking a better option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Lots of the truck trial boys supercharge their diesels, so I'm told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 I thought about this before I went VGT. Fuelling shouldn't be a problem, your low-speed torque will be better if you can get a well-matched unit but your fuel consumption will suffer. A 300 would be easier to mount the unit onto for belt driving, and you'll likely need quite a wide belt. Give it a go! Don't mess with compound options though, matching two units (turbo or supercharger) will be hard work and lots of maths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Superchargers cost crank power to run though whereas turbos spin for free. Superchargers are great if you want quick response, spend most of your time at full throttle and don't care about pumping loses 'cos you have excess power anyway. Turbos are actually useful on the road Turbos spin for free?????????? How abot restricting the exhaust gases, heating the the inlet charge and and adding length and complexity to the inlet duct with intercoolers etc. Super chargers are better in many ways for low end power and instant throttle response. Turbos are generally fitted to mass produced cars because they are cheaper to produce and fit than a supercharger and most people can live with a little turbo lag in everyday driving. Turbos are O.K. on the road if you spend a lot of time in the power zone of the turbo i.e. cruising speed however around town superchargers are much better/ more fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Quite a common misconception to think that a turbo is for free! Although they are generally more efficient than even a good Mechanical driven supercharger, They create large amounts of exhaust back pressure, and we all know that that is not good for power!! A lot of work for a road vehicle! VGT would be an easier route however don't let us stop you as it would be a fun setup!! Thought about it on Ced's Buggy engine but going to use VGT and Nitrous instead ;o) Lara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatback90 Posted September 26, 2009 Author Share Posted September 26, 2009 starting to do the research and there seems to be very little done on small (2.5lt) engines they seem to be common in very big ship engines that need help to fill the cylinder with the mixture (big meaning 4-6ft diameter pistons and above!!) the benefits for small engines seem to be outwieghed by the downsides of mechanical drag and wasteful pumping losses at higher rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 starting to do the research and there seems to be very little done on small (2.5lt) engines they seem to be common in very big ship engines that need help to fill the cylinder with the mixture (big meaning 4-6ft diameter pistons and above!!) the benefits for small engines seem to be outwieghed by the downsides of mechanical drag and wasteful pumping losses at higher rpm. Super chargers work very well on smaller engines, check out drag race cars, the supercharger does take about 2500hp to drive on a top fuel car but you do get 6500hp + at the flywheel (turbos are too slow for this application). TBH you should have a look at centrifugal superchargers, imagine a belt driven turbo, instant throttle response and no pulsing or excessive heat introduction. They have been using these on yank motors for years and would be an ideal bolt on for a landy. P.S. I have stood inside turbos used on ships engines I`m 6`3" btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatback90 Posted September 26, 2009 Author Share Posted September 26, 2009 by small i meant 2.5l! most drag cars are 3-4 times that size!!! if it takes 2500hp of a 6500hp car thats over 30% power just to drive the blower that kind of figure on a 110bhp engine is like taking the turbo off!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 A little light reading for you. An unbiased report on superchargers and turbochargers on smaller cars. Personally I would look at gas injection for extra power, especially if it is only required occasionally. http://members.cox.net/ry.anderson/ForcedInduction.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest otchie1 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Quite a common misconception to think that a turbo is for free! Although they are generally more efficient than even a good Mechanical driven supercharger, They create large amounts of exhaust back pressure, and we all know that that is not good for power!! Lara That's why the vast majority of modern diesels come fitted with a turbo, 'cos it reduces the power of the engine. From Hillier(p204) adding turbo to CI engine - power increase can be as high as 60%, fuel consumption improved by 10% and exhaust noise reduced. Note the CI caveat, we're not talking petrol here... Hillier(p202) "The difficulty of driving a centrifugal blower at very high speeds and the loss of up to 35% of the engine power to provide the drive can be neatly overcome by ..... a turbocharger." Bell(pV) "...a 200bhp engine dumps aprox 70bhp equivalent of raw heat straight out the tailpipe. That is a tremendous amount of energy that could be put to better use." McInnes(p11)"Many people think this exhaust-gas energy is not free because the turbine wheel causes back pressure on the engine exhaust system. This is true to a certain extent, but when the exhaust valve first opens, the flow through it is critical. Critical pressure occurs when the cylinder pressure is more than twice the exhaust-manifold pressure. As long as this condition exists, back pressure will not affect flow." You do realise that it is still more efficient to use an intercooler even on a supercharged engine don't you? Can we play engineering qualification tennis again now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Bell(pV) "...a 200bhp engine dumps aprox 70bhp equivalent of raw heat straight out the tailpipe. That is a tremendous amount of energy that could be put to better use." I don't wish to interrupt your tennis but 70bhp worth of heat is not 70bhp of useful power, it is just heat. Useful if you had a secondary engine running on steam, but not a lot else. If there was 70bhp of actual thrust coming out of your exhaust the mounting rubbers would be a bit bigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Increase power by 60% and improve fuel consumption by 10%???????????? One or other please!!! Not that I have any great engineering qualifications, but I have been playing with engines for over 20 years from 1.5hp to 40,000hp. Even developed variable cam timing devices for Mopar and built engines that don`t use pistons (or rotors for that matter). Charge cooling works on any blown engine however turbos produce more unwanted heat than superchargers. Most over complex and fun engine I worked on though was a Detroit diesel 2 stroke twin turbo and supercharged engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Actually that comes from the ancient guestimation, re the efficiency of internal combustion engines, that from 100% potential energy in fuel, 35% is converted to mechanical energy at the crankshaft, 30% is lost in the cooling system and bear minimum accesories and 35% goes down the exhaust pipe (i.e kinetic + potential energy, i.e heat is only part of the loss). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 By all means carry on the tennis, but IMO there's a danger here of creating a complicated solution to a simple problem. More power for a 200tdi = VGT and or propane injection. I'm not against engineering innovation, but when a cost effective solution already exists... somehow doesn't seem worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 It depends what you're looking for from your engine. A cost effective solution for 1 bar of boost from 1800rpm from a 200 / 300 Tdi exists out of the factory. I wanted better grunt at lower revs so I could take advantage of longer gearing, reduce noise levels, get an MPG benefit and enjoy slightly more power too. I went down the VGT route and I now have 1 bar of boost at 1400rpm and 1.5bar at 1800rpm - I suspect my turbo's not quite so well matched as it could be so there's possibly more to come. I reckon you could see more boost from <1000rpm using a supercharger - how far do you want to go for that instant response? VGTs are more fashionable but I reckon you could build a supercharged setup for less ££ than a VGT install. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe 90 Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 chargecooling is the best way for superghargers and the lishome chargers are the best ones to have, next best are rotrax chargers but mini chargers are cheap to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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