Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Hi all, A mate who has a new (Old ) LR has had steering woblle shacks and probs, so far we have between us Rebuilt the front axle in all seals and bearings Fitted new discs, jockey arm bushes frint ansd rear and panard rods etc etc Fitted new track and steering rods / ball joints Adjusted slack in steering new dmaper Swapped whaeels around and balanced Fitted new prop UJs & Steering UJs slider OK and has recently pre purchase had new shocks and springs all around Basically just about everything front end sorted / replaced / adjusted And thats from memory Each fix saw an improvment each time, now it no longers shakes or wobbles drives staright and he is chuffed to bits, whereas I am not There is at speeds a sort of Rrrrr Rrrrr Rrrrr rumble, and I am frankly stumped Its like a slow rythmic vibration, but not like a UJ or swivel bearing, does it whatver the steering is corners or straight ahead - unsure what the sprinmgs are but I am wondering if this is still prop related - how much "Lift" or at what angle at rest does a Double cardon prop come into its own, I am wondering if he is in this area, as its higher then mine ? Thoughts ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jericho Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Can't answer your question about what angle.But - sort of Rrrrr Rrrrr Rrrrr rumble It certainly sounds like a prop shaft.Is it phased as it should be? Diff pinion bearings? Tranfer box output flange bearings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 my understanding is that a shaft with single joints on each end must run with the flanges parallel with each other and a double cardon shaft must be used when they are not, therefore as soon as you lift a landrover you are altering the angle of the front diff (nose pointing up) and should change to a double cardon shaft to allow for this. in practice it seems there is a bit of lee way in this theory and in many cases you can run a lift of a couple of inches and get away with it, having said all of that it does seem to affect some cars and not others though, ive got a two inch lift and fitted a double cardon shaft even though i didnt have any vibrations or noises but i just felt it was the right thing to do, also maybe std props would wear faster when being run at greater/unparallel angles??? have you run the car with the front prop removed? did the noise dissappear? HTH martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 There is at speeds a sort of Rrrrr Rrrrr Rrrrr rumble, and I am frankly stumped Does it change with speed...getting faster as speed increases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 ^^^^^^^^ Transfer box bearing is fine as is diff bearing in the nose, and little bashlash too The Rrrr Rrrr Rrrr is spedd related defo Anyone recomend where to get and how much £s for a decent quality DC Prop for a 300 TDi ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Propshaft clinic made mine pics in tech archive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Nige, Does it have a lift? Does it have castor corrected arms? As if IIRC a double cardon prop is usually only needed if it does. Is the noise definately coming from the front? If it is lifted is the rear diff flange at the correct angle with relation to the transfer box? As I found on mine that lifting the suspension 2" using standard trailing arms caused the diff pinion angle to change, causing a similar noise. I corrected it by adding a 5mm spacer to the trailing arm at the chassis bush end. HTH Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Its defo liftd taller than mine by a bit, and has std radius arms & Bushes can you clarify re your post above / spacers / prop please Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I'll try Basically what I found was the lift caused the axle to roll the diff nose upwards as the angle on the radius arms got steeper. This caused the prop flange to not be vertical in the rest position, causing a I suspect a prop phasing issue. I asked on here for ideas and Bill Van Snorkel suggested looking at adding a small spacer to the trailing arms to roll the axle back to it's normal rest position. Tried this and problem went away. Ask Bish as I suggested it to him awhile back when he had a similar problem and I believe it cured his too. Conversely I have just had the opposite happen as I returned mine to standard height but with longer cranked trailing arms left over from the lift and this rolled the axle to far the other way so I had to shorten the arms (by moving the chassis bush to the other side of the chassis mount.) to bring the diff pinion angle back to standard. HTH Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 something that could easily be missed - what about the tyres??? a mate of mine who has got a Focus had a similar issue, strange rythmic humming noise from the rear, that sounded like the wheel bearing, he swapped the tyres and the noise disappeared. could be worth a try....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingrat Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Hobson Brothers have been doing the ones fitted to HD defenders (i.e grease nipples on the DC joint). They put em up on ebay for about £150 with tranny flange (no comments please). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Could you pop the front prop off and see if the noise vanishes? If it does you know for sure your onto a front prop issue? I'm sure the D2 front props are the same length as 300TDI> Defender/Disco Props, so a standard D2 prop could be put straight on. They arent greaseable though, which could be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 CV joint end float out? If the splines are a little slack they may run off center resulting in a vibration...maybe...perhaps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Could you pop the front prop off and see if the noise vanishes? If it does you know for sure your onto a front prop issue? I'm sure the D2 front props are the same length as 300TDI> Defender/Disco Props, so a standard D2 prop could be put straight on. They arent greaseable though, which could be an issue. 1 major point missed the transfer output flange also needs to be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Good point! Perhaps not quite so easy as a "try it and see" fix then, but i guess removing the prop would still give you an idea. Looks like your propshaft clinic one uses the original smaller TXB flange too, so no need to change the flange if HFH's mate planed to get a greasable one built? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirkthe1 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 tranny flange what about giggling like a schoolgirl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 The Rrrr Rrrr Rrrr is spedd related defo Nige Im thinking Harmonics and Natural Frequencies, rather than an actual issue with bearings, if the transfer output and diff input bearings are good. My vote, remove front prop temporarily. Failing that, without being insulting, loose bolts? Did find once on the propshaft on the 88... Brake disk runout ok? Im no expert on propshaft phasing...is it right for the DC prop? HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 transfer output and diff input bearings are very good, and no, no loose bolts Brake disks new and dial shows FA run out - propshaft phasing is correct I am thinking more a DC prop may sort, esp as tonight in mine coming home I noticd the same noise, albiet less.......and just about everything on mine is new replaced or rebuilt front end wise, but now I am aware of his I rekcognised it in mine Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Did you have a few pints before typing the first coulpe of posts Nige ? Don't know if I have anything usefull to contribute except to say that after a few months of trying to diagnose a similar vibration on my home grown portal axled Landy I finally tracked it down to knackered wheel bearings, which surprised me somewhat as on my vehicle they are always fully submerged in oil and getting an easier time of it on negative offset wheels. Re double cardan props, the angle of the single U joint shouls in theory be no more and no less than 3 degrees regardlessof the angle of the double end.The 3 degrees is to keep the needle rollers working so as not to Brinnel into the uj journals.As already mentioned there probably is a bit of leeway with this maximum angle before things get too pear shaped. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Here I am having a crack at someone elses spelling, and I go and spell couple and useful rong HTF duz wun eddet poasts wiv da nue fourmat? Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazelle Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 HTF duz wun eddet poasts wiv da nue fourmat? Bill. Bottom right of your post I use it all the time to correct my bad typing before anyone notices! Enjoy Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 http://www.4xshaft.com/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I'm not a fan of Cardon jointed props - they are generally used by people to paper over another underlying problem. My bet is on the phasing of the flanges on the prop shaft. There is a lot of mis information around about whether the flanges should line up or not. Actually it depends on how parallel the ends are. Hence the phase relationship on a front prop should be different to a rear. On my yellow 90 I had a lot of resonant vibration issues - which I sorted by duplicating the phase of the props on a new (un-fiddled-with) Land Rover. It completely cured it. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I had the issue and I replaced: front diff transfer box 3 front props tried all sorts of Phases panhard bushes radius arm bushes then Diesel Jim sent me a DC prop it cured it straight away. I since removed the QT arms and had the bespoke prop made as above. the prop has been superb partly due to ten grease nipples keeping it lubed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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