Dave W Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Dave W, please don't take this the wrong way, are you something to do with MSA or very well read up or an organiser /scrutineer or something ?? It's not meant to be an insult just an incocent question, as you seem to very much "in the know". Cheers It's a valid question, I don't have any direct connection with the MSA but I have been organising, competing and scrutineering in MSA events for 20 odd years. I've been involved in rally and off road/cross country events and have combined that with challenge events for the last 10 years. Most of what I've learnt about the MSA regs has been as a result of trying to push the boundaries quite a lot of that time. I've been on a number of MSA training courses covering officials, marshals and scrutineering but never taken it any further because I love driving too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Well obviously that is what I meant Mark as the vast majority of this thread is a discussion about MSA events and so doesn't apply to anything run outside of MSA.... There's been a lot of confusion and mis-understaning on this issue so I was just making the point as a lot of people may not appreciate that there are events outside the MSA when people use the words ANY and ALL. True, although I have no idea who is running challenges outside the MSA this year. 4x4 Adventures for one. Be interesting to see who else might choose to organise events outside of the MSA umbrella especially in the light of this farce over implmenting this license regulation change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_s Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 An extra 23 quid? A form to send in? Seems pretty simple to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 An extra 23 quid? A form to send in? Seems pretty simple to me. I also have to hand over access to my medical records, which I suspect leaves me liable to the charges if they want a doctors report. There will be people who can't truthfully answer questions on the application because of the exclusions due to some conditions. Your right, just £23 and a form. The notes on the foe rm helpfully point out that I have the option to refuse permission to see medical records......but they won't give me a license if I do. I foresee that I won't be renewing this annually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_s Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I also have to hand over access to my medical records, which I suspect leaves me liable to the charges if they want a doctors report. There will be people who can't truthfully answer questions on the application because of the exclusions due to some conditions. Your right, just £23 and a form. The notes on the foe rm helpfully point out that I have the option to refuse permission to see medical records......but they won't give me a license if I do. I foresee that I won't be renewing this annually. I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I suggest you read the rest of 4.3.1(b)... "Clubman events may not form part of any championship other than a championship restricted to the organising club" You can only have one organising club and only the members of the organising club can take part in the championship. So in that case whichever of the two clubs apply for the permit, their members will be the only ones eligible for the championship. Any members of invited clubs (including the club that didn't apply for the permit and is therefore an invited club) can compete in the event but their score cannot be included in the championship results. You have to run National B to have more than one club in a championship and you have to register it as a championship. Only single club championships are exempt from registering. Being recognised as a member of a club requires that they have voting rights at at least one AGM. This means you can't use some form of weekend membership to allow people to take part. The MSA were asked to clarify in 2008n exactly who and how many invited clubs could be invited, and the reply was The amount we have. We also checked when we submitted the 2009 |sr's and again for the 2010 sr's Is this another example of the MSA not knowing there own rules!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 You've completely missed my point. (Note: I have been a member of a MSA Recognised club for almost 20 years and as a Club Comp Sec and Rally Sec I have a reasonable understanding of how MSA regs, permits, and SRs work... I have no big problem with the MSA but just think this one has been handled very badly.) Did not miss your point whatsoever Pam !! and jolly well done for all your time spent ,, (Note, Have been a motor club(MSA) member for over 33 years, served on the committee since 1981, and been current vice chairman since 1985, Done every job that needs doing, up to and including CofC on national status events, Won national championships, and still compete at WRC level, so also had more thatn a few dealing with the RACMSA that was, and MSA as now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I have just recieved an e-mail from the MSA that they are processing my application for a non race cross country clubman's licence and that all criteria has been met and expect to recieve my licence within 21 days, No problem until the mention of "National B" which now puts a whole slant on things and poses the question Has anybody with any authority got a clue what is going on, I take it the licence is going to mandated this year, even though from my perspective the whole affair has not been unlike a "Monty Python" scene, it seems even the best of the organisers and clubs have been caught on the back foot, circumstances seem to be different from club to club, event to event and then change day to day. As a competitor it seemed to me get one a.s.a.p before the almighty rush and then avoid the possibilty of turning up at the first event with the old "its in the post"excuse, this act may now come around and bite me where it hurts. 7 days ago the only event that appeared to need an MSA licence was the XTC, now it seems I need more licences than Jenson Button does to do the British GP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I suggest you read the rest of 4.3.1(b)... "Clubman events may not form part of any championship other than a championship restricted to the organising club" You can only have one organising club and only the members of the organising club can take part in the championship. So in that case whichever of the two clubs apply for the permit, their members will be the only ones eligible for the championship. Any members of invited clubs (including the club that didn't apply for the permit and is therefore an invited club) can compete in the event but their score cannot be included in the championship results. You have to run National B to have more than one club in a championship and you have to register it as a championship. Only single club championships are exempt from registering. Being recognised as a member of a club requires that they have voting rights at at least one AGM. This means you can't use some form of weekend membership to allow people to take part. THE LRS is run in accordance with MSA regulations that we specificly cheched out with the MSA orricials in 2008 and again in 2009, and before the sr's were submitted for the 2010 series. So in total that is 3 times for the LRS and twice for the MOC CHALLENGES that were run in the preceeding years... WE DID OUR BEST TO GET IT RIGHT!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I have just recieved an e-mail from the MSA that they are processing my application for a non race cross country clubman's licence and that all criteria has been met and expect to receive my licence within 21 days, No problem until the mention of "National B" which now puts a whole slant on things and poses the question Has anybody with any authority got a clue what is going on, I take it the licence is going to mandated this year, even though from my perspective the whole affair has not been unlike a "Monty Python" scene, it seems even the best of the organisers and clubs have been caught on the back foot, circumstances seem to be different from club to club, event to event and then change day to day. As a competitor it seemed to me get one a.s.a.p before the almighty rush and then avoid the possibility of turning up at the first event with the old "its in the post"excuse, this act may now come around and bite me where it hurts. 7 days ago the only event that appeared to need an MSA licence was the XTC, now it seems I need more licences than Jenson Button does to do the British GP Be careful when you fill in the online form, it has a habit of changing your inputted details, and the best bit is it starts on 1 Jan 2010. so you are paying for a month you didn't know you needed it, and didn't use it, or even was applied for. It's like a politicians expense claim, "ALL b*LL*X!!!!!" TRY CLAIMING BACK UR £1.91 for Jan 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 now it seems I need more licences than Jenson Button does to do the British GP Trust me Boothy his license is a lot more complicated and expensive than yours at £848 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Trust me Boothy his license is a lot more complicated and expensive than yours at £848 Yes it does cost more but at least he new he had to have one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 THE LRS is run in accordance with MSA regulations that we specificly cheched out with the MSA orricials in 2008 and again in 2009, and before the sr's were submitted for the 2010 series. So in total that is 3 times for the LRS and twice for the MOC CHALLENGES that were run in the preceeding years... WE DID OUR BEST TO GET IT RIGHT!!!! There may be a number of reasons for this, I know last year several clubs were "requested" to change their championship to club only to avoid this problem. The number of clubs you invite isn't effected, you can still invite up to 15 clubs to the event it's just that the scores from competitors who aren't members of the organising club can't go towards the championship. The MSA could well have applied a waiver in previous years and they may well have applied a waiver this year or may have not realised you were running an inter-club championship. You'll have to ask them that, i just assumed from reading your regs it would have to be a National B event and a registered championship to run like that. I was involved in running an inter-association trial many years ago and we were given a waiver for the first two years to run it as a clubmans event so we didn't need comp. licenses. In the third year though we had to "do it properly" and get licenses and run it as a National B. Having heard on the grapevine about clubs applying for a "punch hunt permit" and navigator/co-driver being referred to in the SR's as "winch bitch" I'd hazard a guess that the MSA are kind of busy atm, it is, after all, primarily an organisation that relies on volunteers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 True, although I have no idea who is running challenges outside the MSA this year. 4x4 Adventures for one. Be interesting to see who else might choose to organise events outside of the MSA umbrella especially in the light of this farce over implmenting this license regulation change. Seems Challenge South West have decided to go their own way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Seems Challenge South West have decided to go their own way. I think "enjoy it whilst we can and if / when we have to change something to keep us going through the MSA'S randomly mooving hoop of confushion we;ll see if its worth going elsewhere. Thanks for the info about the championship, this is new news to me, as the MSA man has not even mentioned anything about it. Typical MSA it seems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 The MSA are currently running a series of training days all around the UK, perhaps it would be worth making sure those involved with organising events actually take up the offer of free training. Whilst the courses aren't aimed specifically at cross country events they do provide a useful insight into the paperwork and regulations behind the running of events. Club officials will have received notification of the courses and reminders every month for the last 4 months in the MSA newsletter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 I went to an MSA training day two years ago and those organising were completely unprepared for anyone from 'cross country' being in attendance and there was no emphasis during the course of the day on anything relevant to our discipline. Having said that I still believe that being an MSA sanctioned discipline provides the best possible legal protection for organisers and competitors alike. People may discuss the rights and wrongs of MSA insurance but I have yet to hear about consideration for prosecution under the RTA Section 13a. That will be something that 99% of people won't have thought about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 I went to an MSA training day two years ago and those organising were completely unprepared for anyone from 'cross country' being in attendance and there was no emphasis during the course of the day on anything relevant to our discipline. Having said that I still believe that being an MSA sanctioned discipline provides the best possible legal protection for organisers and competitors alike. People may discuss the rights and wrongs of MSA insurance but I have yet to hear about consideration for prosecution under the RTA Section 13a. That will be something that 99% of people won't have thought about I am booked into one of the MSA training days soon, have been for ages, may be plesently supprised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Having said that I still believe that being an MSA sanctioned discipline provides the best possible legal protection for organisers and competitors alike. 100% Neil Better in the long run to be in with the Mafia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Ref: People may discuss the rights and wrongs of MSA insurance but I have yet to hear about consideration for prosecution under the RTA Section 13a. That will be something that 99% of people won't have thought about What is it then for those without a full set of regs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawark22 Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 RTA section 13a is scary and sort of says stay with the MSA it might be the best £30 youve ever spent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Something to with the set up and running of motorsport event is all i could find last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The 1991 Road Traffic Act is very specific in its control provisions: 1.No mechanically propelled vehicle may lawfully proceed more than 15 yards from a road, unless it is moving to a recognised parking place, without the landowner’s permission. 2. Any motor vehicle off the public highway but in a public place (i.e. where the public may have access) MUST meet the full Road Traffic Act requirements (except that Motor Tax need not be paid if not on a publicly maintained road) and MUST be driven by a properly qualified and licensed driver, who is insured under a road risk policy. The only exception to this is when the person riding or driving can show that they were driving in accordance with an Authorisation Permit for a motoring event issued under regulations made by the Secretary of State and issued by one of the authorising bodies named in the statutory instrument. This legislation clearly defines event operators’ entitlements as to when, where and how their events might take place, so that a person shall not be guilty of an offence. (Department of Transport Guidance Note HGU9227) Under these regulations a person ‘shall not be guilty of an offence even if it would be obvious to a competent driver that driving in that way would be dangerous or careless.’ (Section 2 (b) RTA 1991) Without this exemption, dangerous driving carries a custodial penalty. Careless driving carries a community punishment and rehabilitation order of up to 100 hours plus a substantial fine. To protect the right of people taking part in any type of auto or motorcycle leisure activities or sports whilst aware of the dangers and risk they were running, even a person who causes the death of another person by driving a mechanically propelled vehicle dangerously shall not be guilty of an offence under Section 1,2 or 3 of the Road Traffic Act by virtue of driving a vehicle Off Road in a public place, if they show that they were driving in accordance with an Authorisation Permit for a motoring event given under Regulations made be the Secretary of State and issued by an Authorising Body. (Section 13A RTA 1991) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Well done Tony... And the MSA is one of the authorised issuing bodies of said permits, each event permit applied for includes a payment per car for the permit and a payment per car for liability insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
general-confusion Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Applied online last night , paid my £23 by card and at 10:14 am this morning received an email that my licence was being printed and I will receive it within 6 working days , this was not using the express service either....love it or hate it this is here for drivers in 2010 so I suggest you dont leave it to the last minute before applying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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