SteveG Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Hi looks interesting. got a few questions. I am treading carefully as I would like to consider myself a friend of Jim GP. ..... Rob, you say you are treading carefully then ask a bunch of loaded questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 I am treading carefully as I would like to consider myself a friend of Jim GP. does the spring give safety on? has the (dog clutch) system got any means of holding its self in tighter the harder you winch? are the 2 parts of the (dog)easily replaceable should they ever get damaged due to misuse? and at what cost? How are the components kept lubricated? Should you need to replace components in the field is it easily possible?what tools would be needed? would you need to remove the winch to work on it? Is there a part of winch drum accessible from the non motor end?I have fancies for attaching a brake disk aka Paul Whiteman. or possibly even a 2nd hydraulic winch drive. And you think Jim and I aren't friends? Yes the drum is fail engaged, ie. if you loose air for whatever reason the spring will engage the drive dog. Holding in is not a feature of this type of clutch. The piston and therefore one half of the dog could be changed if damaged, however, both the part fixed to the drum and the piston are heat treated and tempered to avoid the possability of damage to drive surfaces. The drum is assembled with waterproof grease so the air side is protected. The drive shaft is able to get oil from the winch gearbox, however, the bearings are grease lubricated. If you were to need to replace parts then removing the drum from the winch would be the most work, once removed the mechanism can be removed with circlip pliers. (Internal and external circlips are used). The drum does show at the end plate, I guess you could adapt to it but the bearing supplied is unlikely to fit. You should have come to look at the weekend, I will be at Billing next month with one in bits so feel free to come and have a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Nick has covered most of the bases - except the warranty. All products manufactured by X-Eng are covered by an unconditional 5 year warranty - and the same goes for this too. One or two of you are clearly uneasy about the use of O rings. As I said before, we consulted a seal specialist before going down this route and the decision was not taken lightly. There are well publicised failures of O rings - however I would argue that they have failed due to an inappropriate design. Failures are caused by a combination of pressure, temperature or media. The space shuttle seals failed because they ceased to be elastic at low temperatures. The new version still uses O rings but they are made from a different material and now have heating elements built in. ARB seals fail because the pressure is too high for the cross section of the seal - which causes it to extrude in to the gap. Thin O rings have, I suspect been used to reduce the friction as the lock is disengaged by a fairly weak spring. Although this would seem an ideal application for a lip seal, I suspect the reason behind it is similar to ours in that a lip seal is too thick (difference between the inner and outer diameter). Our seal consultant thinks that making a lip seal which will perform better than an O ring that thin is impossible. A thicker seal would weaken the thing it's sealing, potentially leading to a more destructive failure. In our case, you want the diameter of the drum as small as possible (60mm) but in order to be strong enough, the bore is only 40mm. The grooves for the seals reduce the diameter of the drive shaft by 4mm. Practical lip seals are in the range of 5 to 8mm thick - reducing the drive shaft by 10 to 16mm - which is just too much. The O rings are submerged in oil so they are unlikely to fail due to lack of lubrication. The O rings are thick enough to withstand about 10 times the peak (10 bar) pressure without extruding in to the gap. The tolerance and surface finished have been taylored to suit O rings. We were advised that in a reciprocating seal, an O ring is OK if the displacement is less than 5 x the O ring thickness - which we have complied with. This is to prevent the seal from 'rolling' in the groove. Despite the apparent hostility to O rings - in this (and many other applications) they are an acceptable solution. As I mentioned above, the unit is covered by an unconditional 5 year warranty - including the seals (unlike ARB). Lastly, Rob asked has the (dog clutch) system got any means of holding its self in tighter the harder you winch? The engagement mechanism is effectively a spline (all be it a funny profile) - it's not a dog clutch. A spline joint, unlike a dog clutch, does not need to be pushed in harder as the load increases - as you know from your half shafts, prop shafts and even the way the motor and drum originally engage in an 8274. I dare say that the O ring debate will continue as people have clearly got their teeth in to it - but I contend that it has been designed properly and without access to the rest of the design parameters, nobody but us can say whether they are a good or a bad solution. Anything else is just an opinion. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 I'm a bit bemused by all this, as far as i can see it's a very good product at a very good price. The only confusing bit to me is the way it's being sold as it seems to be an x-eng product being sold by a, to me, unknown third party. All this talk of seal design seems a bit (well, a lot actually) picky to me and I don't understand where it's come from. The 8274 uses a few O rings in it's design already too and they've never seemed to be a problem. I really don't care about the intricacies of how it's built, my only question is "Will it work ?" and "Can I afford it ?" The X-Eng reputation, my previous experience of their products and the backing of a 5 year warranty gives me confidence in the first and the second will have to wait until I get paid at the end of the month As someone who has just forked out nearly 100 quid for a small replacement Gigglepin winch part that failed because it was supplied before they upgraded that part I can tell you that the sort of warranty Simon is offering is very attractive ! That's over 25% of the cost of this new drum blown on one small gear from GP, I daren't take my rear winch apart to check that to see if it's done the same ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 I've never seen X-Eng as a 'winch' company - although I have had several good winch related ideas, I'm no specialist! I made a decision that any winch related components would be sold by specialists like Goodwinch, Gigglepin & West Mids 4x4. Delta-Tek is Nick's (Rogue Vogue) company. Nick & I being friends made it a natural collaboration and working together we have produced a far better product than either of us could individually. Ian from West Mids was involved in the testing & development from the start - so they were a natural choice as the first reseller. Hopefully we will be able to attract several several other resellers - including Gigglepin. Jim has one of the drums for evaluation at the moment. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Some more pics: +3inch drum kit std drum kit solenoid control kit manual control kit both drums prototype drum test set up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Thanks Simon - I think you have put the seal issue to rest. I was happy with your first response to what I asked. My other posts were addressed to personal attacks on my credibility from thebiggreenthing and contained explanations as to why I thought it was legitimate to question the use of O-rings - it seems that one was not enough to quell him. It is unfortunate that it went this far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Thanks Simon - I think you have put the seal issue to rest. I was happy with your first response to what I asked. My other posts were addressed to personal attacks on my credibility from thebiggreenthing and contained explanations as to why I thought it was legitimate to question the use of O-rings - it seems that one was not enough to quell him. It is unfortunate that it went this far. buy no means was it an attack i was simply making a point that jims winches use the same sealing system. it was by no means intended to start an argument which was the way you took it. i personally dont care how or what is used to build the winch aslong as its reliable o-rings keep in line with the " kiss " rule and are very quickly and cheaply replaced i hope you dont see the need to continue with this debate as this is yet another superb piece of engineering and ill certainly be buying one for my rear winch. dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Thanks Simon - I think you have put the seal issue to rest. I was happy with your first response to what I asked. My other posts were addressed to personal attacks on my credibility from thebiggreenthing and contained explanations as to why I thought it was legitimate to question the use of O-rings - it seems that one was not enough to quell him. It is unfortunate that it went this far. I for one have no doubts about your credibility (your other posts prove that!) - and no doubt, others will think what you have articulated. So it was worth trying to address at the outset. Believe me, it was not an easy decision as previously I have thought along similar lines. However, having spoken to a grown-up I was convinced it was the right solution in this case. So - thank you for bringing it up. I would rather argue the point with someone who knows what they are talking about. Si PS Nice piccies Ian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 just finished fitting mine, certainly very shiney!!! Pretty easy to fit, the hardest bit being the wiring which for a numpty like me is understanable!! tested it out on the back of a tractor and shes working a treat, just looking forward to using it in anger now roll on the 27th!! CSW at Ruggerton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Heres the video of it operating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 I don't run 8274's, but this looks like a nice bit of kit With regards to the "manual control switch" do you off a lever valve (as opposed to a push button). I find these are a lot easier to see if the winches are in freespool or not. Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Nick was showing me a very nice lever valve for exactly that reason this weekend, and I think I am right in saying that will be an option on the kit. If anyone is interested in seeing the drum up close and in use, Orange and I will be running one of these drums at this weekends round of the awdc challenger series at Ringwood. Feel free to come and have a nosey. Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Nick was showing me a very nice lever valve for exactly that reason this weekend, and I think I am right in saying that will be an option on the kit. If anyone is interested in seeing the drum up close and in use, Orange and I will be running one of these drums at this weekends round of the awdc challenger series at Ringwood. Feel free to come and have a nosey. Cheers Mark I run my diffs from them as well, to avoid the possible problems of blown fuses etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 We can supply a lever valve as an option. It's worth noting that any of the kits to control these drums will replace the standard ARB valve, you could operate your lockers without any wiring at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 Beaten to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Nick, this style of valve is easier to mount i've found : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Heres the video of it operating Nice video Ian - I particularly like the metallic 'clunk' noise as it engages. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 Nick, this style of valve is easier to mount i've found : They look nice but I supply a complete kit for £40 inc VAT. If you know where to get valves like that at a realistic price i'd love to hear about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyzeus Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Heres the video of it operating Thankyou.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyzeus Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 If anyone is interested in seeing the drum up close and in use, Orange and I will be running one of these drums at this weekends round of the awdc challenger series at Ringwood. Feel free to come and have a nosey. Cheers Mark Don't think i'll be the only one having a nosey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 For those wanting to use solenoids, I used a "fighter pilot" style toggle switch when I had an air freespool. Makes it obvious to see if the freespool is engaged and avoid accidental activation when the cover is down. They are available in lots of pretty colours too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 New promo video now available on . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 New promo video now available on . That puts the difference into perspective. Well done on the video; informative, entertaining and amusing. (Simon running!) and Boy George driving on the logs at the end too! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 Boy George driving on the logs at the end too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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