Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 By popular demand …………. After many years of using electric winches in my profession, when I re-built the 90 I decided to go hydraulic using the Milemarker 2 speed. Generally hydraulic is bomb proof if installed correctly. However, the MM has a bad reputation here in the UK for being slow ……… but this is only partially true as many folk never appreciate that a hydraulic motor fed from a fixed flow pump will always turn at the same speed up to its maximum load. In fact the MM is way quicker at full load than most electric winches, but fails miserably against them in the light /low load spool time. My original setup used an engine driven ZF74 pump and small tank …. So after 3 years, its time to go major league. The motor on the UK imported MM is a different spec to the US model. Stateside gets the 17.9Cu in and we get the 12.5Cu in. The characteristic of these motor are similar but not identical. For our application the 12.5Cu in motor is the better option. Looking at the specs for the Whites Hydraulics 200 series motor we get the following, Continuous Flow 16 US/GPM Max Flow 20 US/GPM Continuous Pressure 1750psi Max Pressure 2250psi Continuous Shaft RPM 300 Max Shaft RPM 370 Max Torque 3050in/lbs So…… the drum is 2.5ins diameter (1st layer) so 1 RPM of the drum is 7.8ins. The MM is 6:1 so therefore the absolute Max line speed (in ft/min) at full load calculates out as ((370/6)*7.8)/12 = 40ft/min. By the time you get up to the third layer the winch will be doing over 50ft/min In high gear (respool mode) the MM operates at 1:1 so the Max line speed will be (370*7.8)/12 = 240 ft/min. In reality those speeds will be too fast for general use so we need to carefully select a pump that will match the requirement. For this application the pump that I have used has the following specs, Capacity per Revolution 25cc (25L/min @1000rpm) Min RPM 650 (16.25L/min) Nominal RPM 1500 (37.5L/min) Max RPM 2500 (62.5L/min) Max Pressure 2325psi The MM winch body is really well made and capable of a lot then is published by MM. The parts of the supplied system that let it down are, 1) The design was to run from a steering pump. IMHO this will always be compromise because of the flow curve of this type of pump. 2) The solenoid spool block will only flow a max of 3.5US Galls/min. This would be a serious bottleneck on any system upgrade 3) The whole system is piped in 3/8 and this would be unsuitable for the required flow rates as detailed above. My view of the way forward is to use a PTO driven pump, a manual spool valve with built in PRV, a tank of at least 1:1 capacity an over-centre valve in case of pressure loss, and an in cab pressure gauge to show what the system in doing. The piping will be 1inch from tank to pump, ¾ inch return, and ½ inch feed to the motor Calculations like the above are never difficult…………. but defining the parameters for the calculation can be really difficult . I suppose the most difficult area was defining in ft/min the winch speed. If I ran a winch and said to 10 experienced off road guys, “tell me what speed that was in ft/min”…………… I would get 10 different answers and probably none of them would even be close. With an electric winch as the load is increased, then the motor note changes and the winch slows and the converse is also true…………. with increasing the load on a hydraulic, the speed stays exactly the same until the pressure reaches the PRV setting. Then the winch just stops. So, to give me a real feel for what is fast and what is slow, and what is acceptable, I looked at several electric winch specs and compared these to my calculations. In every case the calculations showed the Hydro / pump setup to be very much faster………. The UK MM importer builds a MM derivative (called a MM type R) that spools, under full load, at over 75ft/min. This design uses solenoid valves so its either ‘on’ or ‘off’ with nothing in between and also uses an engine driven pump via an open chain. Before we get all cynical about the chain, it is designed to be connected when the winch is required and not a permanent fixture. To be fair, this winch was designed for competition use……. but to me, for general use, that sort of speed would be mighty dangerous. That’s why the design I have finally used incorporates a manual spool valve for fine control, plus the ability to select any of the forward gears (with the transfer box in neutral) to vary the maximum pump speed. Winching with hydraulic is very deceiving …...….. the winch just keeps on turning at the same speed and applying the power, until either something gives or the system pressure trips the PRV (pressure relief valve). This is a reason why you need very strong mounts and super strong recovery points. As long as you appreciate the power of hydraulic, they are a joy to use ………. they go at the flick of a lever and they stop dead at the flick of a lever……… with hydraulics you get no run on. So what was the most difficult part of the installation ………… without any doubt this was the routing of the hydraulic pipes and ensuring enough room for the size of the hydraulic fittings. I have used very high quality double walled ‘megaflex’ rated to 29Mpa (4200psi). Even a compact 90 on 1 inch pipe is massive …….. then add that to the fact that you cannot twist 1 inch pipe, so the fittings need to be crimped on once the lay of the pipe is sorted out. The only real fabbing was the tank mounts ……. and I made up these from some pieces of 8mm steel. The other area of fabbing was the winch bumper ….. this was a preproduction model that was made by a well known small workshop near here for a local 4x4 aftermarket part supplier. I bought it cheap because (a) the angle of the A bar was wrong……. it was leaning toward the grill instead of away from the grill, (B) the tubular bumpers were the wrong angle …… well, they were for me, and © the whole assembly had a 10mm twist in it. After a lot of grinding out welds, cutting and re-welding I have obtained the result I wanted. My son then painted (sprayed) it with black engine bay 2 pack. The final setting up is simple ……… after filling the system, run the pump to purge the air. Then adjust the OCV (overcentre-valve)….. for this application it needs to be set very light, so unscrew the adjuster all the way out and then screw in until spring pressure is felt (about 4 turns). Next is to set the PRV………… mechanically lock the winch by selecting high and low gear together………….. back off the PRV adjuster……… then operate the winch and quickly adjust the PRV to 2000psi on the gauge. For those that are not familiar with hydraulics, the OCV (Over Centre Valve) is needed to stop the winch motor turning into a pump on a loaded power out. This device is a ‘must have’ if you do a lot of winching up hills or lowering out on steep slopes. So…………….. here is the install in pictures, The assembled bits look like this Maxidrive Rover PTO housing, pump, and overcentre valve Tank This is the 20micron return filter on the tank Spoolvalve – these are used on forklift trucks So…off with the old And then strip the winch that has been on the front for over 3 years and has been underwater many, many times and also has seen sea water. The strip down is easy, just undue the tie rod set bolts and pull off the gearbox & main shaft. I was well pleased too find no water ingress and the gearbox was like new. As you can see the centre shaft on these is massive. All this needed was re-greasing with waterproof grease and a coat of paint. Tank in the load bed Spool valve beside the driver Pump and housing onto the transferbox The PTO dog clutch lever Bling pressure gauge in front of the spool valve Overcentre valve as close to the winch as possible. And then the plumbing The winch bumper is a whole new story... The final testing has exceeded all expectations ……. Continually variable from silly slow to very fast. Respool in high gear is now a joke ……… you could respool the whole 100ft drum in 20seconds. I need to do some load testing, but I have set the PRV to 2000psi, so I have calculated that the winch will trip the prv at about 16000lbs on a single line pull. But unlike electric ………. You can pull that 16000lbs at up to 40ft/Min and all day long David Lovejoy gave me a hand to spool up the plasma …….I think he still has fingers We found that 1000rpm in 4th (1:1) with the winch in Low was plenty fast enough for Dave’s fingers . Using the motor manufacturers published data this works out as ((147rpm/6)*7.8)/12 = 16ft/Min ……… OK 15.9 rounded up Well, I got to do some unplanned load testing at the weekend ………. Saturday night is the time we shoot rabbits on a 300 acre farm……… my son stands in the back of the defender with his 3 shot auto 12G Beretta and I drive & light up the rabbits with the 700watts of spot lamps whilst also waving a 12G under/over Browning out of the window . At about midnight I drove through a area of natural clay bog ………. we normally avoid this but as it has been very dry I thought I would be OK. About half way through I sank to the chassis ( I wasn’t trying) ……… using an extension rope I hooked up onto a tree at about 150ft ………… the extraction was effortless and I noticed the pressure gauge was indicating about 900psi ……..driving around this farm is always quite challenging as it is very hilly terrain with some woodland & grassland slopes ……… and I get to go wherever I want . It a bit long winded .............hope you're not bored. Edited to add ......... i really should have cleaned the truck before I took the pictures ! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cols110 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Hmmm, that is impressive, what sort of money are you talking about for a set up like that, rough figures, the winch, pump etc are fixed costs, but then when you start adding the pipes, vlaves, reservior etc, I`d imagine you would have to be looking at 1500-2K ish. Certainly needs to be added to the tech archive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Blimey Ian, that is some set-up ! Congratulations on getting it all up and running, very impressive ! Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Awesome write-up Its always been the cost of the hoses and ancillaries that put me off hydraulic, but it does seem to work out well if you don't skimp on the installation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Ian, that's excellent. Nice to see how you've spec'd it up from basics and superb execution. Definately shows how hydraulics should be done. Have you compared figures with Nige for pump capacities, flow rates,.. might be nice to see those figures side by side. Def one for the archive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 Hmmm, that is impressive, what sort of money are you talking about for a set up like that, rough figures, the winch, pump etc are fixed costs, but then when you start adding the pipes, vlaves, reservior etc, I`d imagine you would have to be looking at 1500-2K ish. Hmmmmmmmmmm lets see now ……………….I really didn’t want to think about that The thick end of £2k including the winch ………. Over £2k including the plasma. The hydraulic fittings / pipes were just shy of £300……….. but if you use quality then it only needs to be done once. Later in the year I will fit a rear MM ……… the spool valve I have used has a replacement lever available that has a switch in the top to fire a 4 port C/O valve for Front/Rear . The rear mount will follow the idea of Jez ………. Cut out the centre section of the rear x member and weld in the original MM mount with a 50mm box section behind it. First job though is to change the tyres ……….Super Swamper 34’s B) and then get to work on the rear winch. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cols110 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Hmmmmmmmmmm lets see now ……………….I really didn’t want to think about that The thick end of £2k including the winch ………. Over £2k including the plasma. The hydraulic fittings / pipes were just shy of £300……….. but if you use quality then it only needs to be done once. Later in the year I will fit a rear MM ……… the spool valve I have used has a replacement lever available that has a switch in the top to fire a 4 port C/O valve for Front/Rear . The rear mount will follow the idea of Jez ………. Cut out the centre section of the rear x member and weld in the original MM mount with a 50mm box section behind it. First job though is to change the tyres ……….Super Swamper 34’s B) and then get to work on the rear winch. Ian No cheap, but you get what you pay for, at least adding the rear winch will be a hell of a lot cheaper as you already have all the other ancillaries in place. I spose by the time you do all the mods to an 8274, especially a new one, it would`nt work out a hell of a lot cheaper. Looking foward to seeing the piccies of the rear one when its in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 Ian, that's excellent. Nice to see how you've spec'd it up from basics and superb execution. Definately shows how hydraulics should be done.Have you compared figures with Nige for pump capacities, flow rates,.. might be nice to see those figures side by side. Def one for the archive. Trev Thank you for the kind words.......and that reminded me............ There are a couple of customary things I need to add, the following folk made life so much easier, A special note thanks to Eddy (who I know will be reading this) at my local hydraulic specialists who advised on fittings, pipework and flow/pressure rates. Also, our resident forum agony aunt Nige (HFH) who was always helpful on the end of the phone . Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 8274 modded up: winch £795 + delivery XP motor £200 allbright £65 cables to remote mount the solenoid £35 plasma rope £150 fairlead £50 breather £10 pair of batteries £100 saftey cut off switch £20 so £1450 all in. you can then sell the orig solenoids/motor etc and probably recoup £100 or so If you want a small/wide drum/twin motors then add lots of extra ££ not questioning Ians superb work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 Tony, Yes, electric will always be cheaper………… whether its better or not is a debate that would rage on from here to eternity ………… however, even if you added a couple of Optima’s and a fancy charger you would still be looking at less then £1800. I have also had some PM’s regarding the winch bumper…….. more pictures needed……….so rather than reply individually , Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 … the drum is 2.5ins diameter (1st layer) so 1 RPM of the drum is 7.8ins...... and an in cab pressure gauge to show what the system in doing... ... the OCV (Over Centre Valve) is a fail safe device. Its a ball bearing shuttle valve and the idea is that if you suddenly lose pressure (maybe a broken or split hose) then the shuttle operates and blocks off the go & return motor ports... Ian, Well done on the install and write-up. Some minor comments. 1. You should add the rope diameter to the drum diameter when calculating the line speed of the 1st layer. Assuming 3/8" rope the speed will be approx 9" per rev (about 15% higher than just using drum dia). Similarly, accounting for the rope dia, reduces the line pull by about 15%. 2. I strongly advise against having high pressure hydraulic lines (even for pressure gauge) inside the cabin, near your person. If the line fails, the pressure could force hydraulic oil through your clothing and skin and if you dont die, you would probably loose your leg (or the part of your body that is affected. Although more expensive I have a pressure transducer and bar type meter with mine. 3. No overcentre valves that I know of, resemble your description. And from the photo, I would be prepared to wager that yours does not either. Counter balance valves are suitable for holding the load, when pressure is removed from the line to the motor, such as when you release the control lever, or the pressure line fails. A counter balance valve is a variation to a relief valve, with a non-return (check) valve to bypass the relief valve section. If used with a winch motor, the hyd flow is through the non-return valve to wind rope in. When you release the lever, the non-return valve closes and prevents the load from rotating the motor, unless the relief valve pressure setting is exceeded. The relief valve must be set a little higher than the maximum load that you want to hold. Higher pressure is required to power out, so that the relieve valve opens to allow fluid to flow out of the motor. An overcentre valve is a variation to a counter balance valve. The relief valve section is pilot operated, from the other line to the motor when powering out, so that it opens at low pressure. Overcentre valves are used when the load can run away. An example of this would be if you were powering the winch out to lower yourself or another vehicle. If the load starts to run away, the pressure will drop in the pilot line and the relief valve section will close to block the flow out of the motor. The reason that I say that your overcentre valve is like this, and is not a shuttle valve, is because I can clearly see the adjustment for the pressure setting of the relief valve section. The relief valve sections of overcentre valves (and counter balance valves), differ from normal relief valves in the area ratios of the poppet to its seat. I have seen some people (not you) use dual overcentre valves with hydraulic winches, but the 2nd overcentre valve (for the opposite direction of rotation), is not necessary because the direction of the load is only ever in one direction (it is not possible for the rope to push a load). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 So this 22 cm3 per revolution pump attached to the LT230 PTO that's bunged in the garage my be of use afterall Re- design on my rear winch then..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 John, I have no doubt that you are right ………….. I had its operation explained to me an interpreted it as I have written (maybe because I understand shuttle valves better !) ……… and that is obviously wrong ……… however, like you say, it needs to be there and does the job as its meant to……….. Yes, I ignored the rope diameter just to simplify the calculations ……….. that way I knew that I was always erring on the side of slower ………..and realising the performance was probably better then calculated. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 wouldn't have optimas as a gift standard mole valley Fiama batteries have never let me down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 wouldn't have optimas as a giftstandard mole valley Fiama batteries have never let me down Nor me again biggest pile of Poo going, both mine are fupped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 wouldn't have optimas as a gift Just replaced my yellow top at 4 years old for another (red top still going strong!), they're not cheap. If you are offered any as a gift, Tony, and don't want them, send them to me Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Mo I will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettisse Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Hi, I have a similar set up using Maxidrive PTO etc on my Hybrid, I've had it for about 3 years now, great bit 'o kit, the major downer is you can't drive/winch assist, not unless its possible to plumb in the ZF pump to take over at low gearbox speeds. However the great advantage is it'l winch all day, needs virtually zero attention, and its very reliable, that being said, I do have an electric on the rear, and have had stirling service from it, so for me the jury is still out. BTW I will be fitting an hydraulic winch to the LandCruiser, so I've probably answered my own question, V nice installation, looks good, well done. Best Regards . Bill Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 There are a couple of customary things I need to add, the following folk made life so much easier,A special note thanks to Eddy (who I know will be reading this) at my local hydraulic specialists who advised on fittings, pipework and flow/pressure rates. Also, our resident forum agony aunt Nige (HFH) who was always helpful on the end of the phone . Ian, Your welcome. Just think mate, now my MegaJolt to EFI ECU works, and your Hydraulic setup worjks, we will see a dramatic drop in both our phone bills Nige PS As I said on the phone the bumper is beautifull, bet it doesn't amke production in it current format ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 A little testing was done tonight to make sure we had no leaks under pressure and more importantly to make sure that the winch held firm under tension (a function of the overcentre valve). The results were yyyyeeeeeessssss…………….. winching up an incline we measured 36ft/min in a non stop pull and this was confirmed by later multiple 30second pulls…… as I was 500 rpm below the max pump speed, the calculated winch speed of 40ft/min is reasonably accurate. The amount of fine control that the spool valve gives is absolutely first class. The winch can be inched in and out with no detectable run on. The respool in high gear is just plain silly and IHMO puts the winch monkey at risk because it is so damn fast…….. I think high gear will be almost redundant Here are the mandatory pictures ……….. this picture does not do the slope justice ….. the slope is about 15 to 20 degrees. The pressure gauge was reading about 500 psi. By adding some man made obstacles to winch over ……… logs about 18 inches in diameter………the pressure went up to 1000psi as it hauled the 90s front wheel up onto the to of the log…………… Here we found a 30 degree (ish) slope up to a convenient tree. Winching the front wheels a foot off the ground with the parking brake off and the full weight of the vehicle on the winch gave me a good test of winch creep ……… and the winch held completely firm. The winch pressure was registering at 800psi which is about right for 2 tons (ish). I think I might back off the PRV to give me 5 tons max to avoid damage to the front of the chassis and the winch bumper. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Brill write up & upgrade job 2. I strongly advise against having high pressure hydraulic lines (even for pressure gauge) inside the cabin, near your person. If the line fails, the pressure could force hydraulic oil through your clothing and skin and if you dont die, you would probably loose your leg (or the part of your body that is affected. with ref to the above quote, on the aircraft I work on where 3,000psi is the working pressure of the hydraulic systems all hydraulic gauges in the cockpit have a gauge shut-off relay valve in their pressure line, so in the event of a gauge or pressure line into the cockpit failing this relay valve operates by sensing the pressure drop on it's out line [to the gauge]-- the relay valve pressure inline drives up a small piston to seal off the out line, [when the a\c returns to base, we have to manually reset the valve by disconnecting each pipeline,change the duff pipe, reseat the piston to the bottom & use a clamp to hold it in place,reconnect the pipelines, bleed the system,remove the clamp & sign off the job] I'll get a photocopy of the valve picture & add it here when home from work tomorrow, hope that helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 you have to winch over 18" stumps? I'll give you a shout with my OCV settings at the weekend Ian, have a good trip fella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 That was the biggest obstacle that we could lift Mucho Ta Jez ………… see you when I get back Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 Brill write up & upgrade job with ref to the above quote, on the aircraft I work on where 3,000psi is the working pressure of the hydraulic systems all hydraulic gauges in the cockpit have a gauge shut-off relay valve in their pressure line, so in the event of a gauge or pressure line into the cockpit failing this relay valve operates by sensing the pressure drop on it's out line [to the gauge]-- the relay valve pressure inline drives up a small piston to seal off the out line, [when the a\c returns to base, we have to manually reset the valve by disconnecting each pipeline,change the duff pipe, reseat the piston to the bottom & use a clamp to hold it in place,reconnect the pipelines, bleed the system,remove the clamp & sign off the job] I'll get a photocopy of the valve picture & add it here when home from work tomorrow, hope that helps Ralph , Thats not those flying crates - Dash 8's (South West Airlines or whatever they are called) is it ? I often use those from Bizzel to Manchester. Look forward to seeing the info. BTW: The short length of HP line in the cab is armoured …… its the type used on heavy machinery…… also the gauge was designed for panel mount. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Ralph ,Thats not those flying crates - Dash 8's (South West Airlines or whatever they are called) is it ? I often use those from Bizzel to Manchester. Look forward to seeing the info. BTW: The short length of HP line in the cab is armoured …… its the type used on heavy machinery…… also the gauge was designed for panel mount. Ian Nope not Dash 8's I look after 15 of these ---------------- info pic of relay valve will appear very soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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