najw Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Pulled into my local BP at my regular pump for plain ole diesel... Only to find it had been replaced with... BP's Super New Ultra Premium Unleaded at... £2.42 per litre Apparently it's been specially developed for high performance engines and is 'Ideal for Track Days' Glad I didn't fill up with it by mistake Can't believe any road legal fuel can make such a difference to be worth the price premium! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Sure, why not? Did you happen to note the octane rating (maybe it didn't say...)? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 102 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 102 What they don't tell you is that some modern engines actually run worse on higher octane fuel...my Dad's 1.4 Skoda Fabia, for instance, doesn't even like boggo super unleaded (and one of his colleagues with the same car has found the same). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 If its like the stuff we use it's the nuts (it cheaper to) it will feel like a difrant car but you will not notic it till you start to push the car hard. not for road use its just a waste on money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ok, fill me in here. That's some decent octane rating. As I understand it (so please correct me) this discussion relates ONLY to compresion ratio and delaying detonation - right? So in a car with a low compression ratio - like, I guess, a 1.4 Skoda? - which can run on low-90s octane without requiring retarding the timing to delay detonation the extra octane has no useful effect (unless your wallet is so heavy it's becoming a pain to carry around)? Obviously I understand the opposite applies in that if your engine is higher CR and the ECU is having to retard the timing on regular gas in reaction to detecting knock at the nominal timing settings, then increased octane fuel like this will incrase performance by allowing it to run with less retardation. In these higher CR cases, why would it be a waste of money for on-road use? (Unless you don't care what your performance is like in these circumstances, obviously, but then why would you have bought a higfher CR engine? (ok, fuel efficiency...). I think there's a question in that sentence somewhere... Are there any side issues related to this, or other effects of changing the octane rating? Why is it that performance drops off for lower performance cars on high octane gas? Cheers, Al. BRING ON THE TECH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ok, fill me in here.That's some decent octane rating. As I understand it (so please correct me) this discussion relates ONLY to compresion ratio and delaying detonation - right? So in a car with a low compression ratio - like, I guess, a 1.4 Skoda? - which can run on low-90s octane without requiring retarding the timing to delay detonation the extra octane has no useful effect (unless your wallet is so heavy it's becoming a pain to carry around)? Obviously I understand the opposite applies in that if your engine is higher CR and the ECU is having to retard the timing on regular gas in reaction to detecting knock at the nominal timing settings, then increased octane fuel like this will incrase performance by allowing it to run with less retardation. In these higher CR cases, why would it be a waste of money for on-road use? (Unless you don't care what your performance is like in these circumstances, obviously, but then why would you have bought a higfher CR engine? (ok, fuel efficiency...). I think there's a question in that sentence somewhere... Are there any side issues related to this, or other effects of changing the octane rating? Why is it that performance drops off for lower performance cars on high octane gas? Cheers, Al. BRING ON THE TECH! I don't know what was done I gave the racing freelander to PTP they built and Race engine and told me to run it on Shell What ever from Shell race fuels Ltd.... or run on Optimax or at a push BP ultimate super unleaded with Millers Turbo 2 fuel additive mixed to twenty lts at a time (as per Millers recommendations) I put normal fuel in and she runs like a bag of nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Sounds like it doesn't have knock sensors or the ability to retard the timing upon detecting pre-ignition. Which of course makes sense if it's not a road car and only sees decent fuels? Why bother putting all that carp in if you don't need it? Still interested in the other bits, anyone? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Sounds like it doesn't have knock sensors or the ability to retard the timing upon detecting pre-ignition. Which of course makes sense if it's not a road car and only sees decent fuels?Why bother putting all that carp in if you don't need it? Still interested in the other bits, anyone? Al. Errrr.... I just thought it was expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 re: Why is it that performance drops off for lower performance cars on high octane gas? the fear of using it too quickly? the sort of cars Ramblers would drive? old fashioned Diesel is 105p per litre around here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 105!!! that must be your local having a laugh its 'only' 99 near me.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 105!!! that must be your local having a laugh its 'only' 99 near me.................... 99!!! that must be your local you're having a laugh its 'only' 85 near me.................... B) Hmm, maybe I fawked up. Are we talking petrol or diesel here? I'm talking petrol - I took the 'unleaded' bit to mean petrol, no? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ok, fill me in here.That's some decent octane rating. As I understand it (so please correct me) this discussion relates ONLY to compresion ratio and delaying detonation - right? In these higher CR cases, why would it be a waste of money for on-road use? (Unless you don't care what your performance is like in these circumstances, obviously, but then why would you have bought a higfher CR engine? (ok, fuel efficiency...). I think there's a question in that sentence somewhere... Cheers, Al. BRING ON THE TECH! Al, Forget the tech and just look at the economics……….. This BP super duper whateveritis costs 146.9% more then ordinary, readily available unleaded at 0.98 per litre. To be cost effective I would need to see a 146.9% fuel consumption improvement to break even ……… that means my V8 90 (10.9:1 CR) would need to go from its current 18mpg (driven with care) to 44.44mpg ……. now that is living in the realms of fantasy land. Now……. in your land of Rocket fuels …….. if you could just develop me a fuel that give me 50+ to the gallon with no loss of performance on my 90, and I will willing pay you 2.42 per litre Now, if we are looking at performance (and here I am talking about on road cars)……… then that cannot be justified as the UK is too congested and the speed limits are there for a reason, and heavily enforced …………. mainly for revenue generation rather than safety. However, in the land of race modified engines, purely for track use, then this fuel may have some benefits ………… remember, a tenth of a second is the difference between a winner and loser. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Al,Forget the tech and just look at the economics……….. However, in the land of race modified engines, purely for track use, then this fuel may have some benefits ………… remember, a tenth of a second is the difference between a winner and loser. Ian I know for a fact that the race fuel(Diesel) a mate runs gives him with the correct ecu mapping a 18% increase on is already blueprinted 3.2 race engine after every else has already been turned to the limit. But that fuel was more than £2.50 a lt I think that was £8 ish but as he said when a manufacturer is buying it how cares 18% increase on a engine will cost thousands to get. EG that's 300bhp to 354bhp just buy plugging it in and putting a different fuel in it. how much will it cost to make a 300bhp V8 jump to 354............ A lot I don't know what or how it all works but he was much much quicker than me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MogLite Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 £2.42 per litre 'Ideal for Track Days' I hope there is a track nearby - otherwise it would be a helluva waste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ian - it's hard to argue with that kind of logic. Unless you're rich, never see track time and want to drive fast on the roads (when not caught in traffic...!). I've no doubt that it'd give better performance with the right engine - sure. >"how much will it cost to make a 300bhp V8 jump to 354............ A lot" Not necessarily, I'd imagine the same sort of increase in a V8 going from 91 octane to around 100 in a suitably tuned engine which is running at retarded timing on the 91. Hell, for a few hundred quid you can add an easy 100 HP to a stock gen 3 chevy (sorry - it's just the engine I'm most familiar with). 50 is very cheap/straightforward. 100 HP from a baseline of 400 HP in a bone stock LS6 for example is 25% increase. B) Anyway, I'm still interested in the questions...? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I heard about this fuel a little while ago but I've not seen it for sale yet; its only at pumps at 8 stations in the UK. Yes, the price is high BUT this is a race fuel. Its not for general use but for people with VERY highly tuned engines wanting to get the best out of them. I think as a race fuel its probably pretty competitivly priced. Not much is being sold (its not designed to be). I think one of the car mags sat at a petrol station one Saturday and only 2 people tried to fill up: a little old lady in a fiesta (who was told by staff it was probably not the fuel she was after) and a guy in a quickish Clio ("Yeah, man, its a race engine. Its got to have the best, innit?"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I am suprised that there was no diesil at all, very starnge marketing chioce, but I guess they must get more call for it where ever you petrol station is? BMW suggest Optimax (>98 Octane) for all their cars but can't see it some how, average BM's have a safe ECU map so it isn't going to use the extra Octane boost anyway! Used it 99% of the time in my M5 couldn't realy tell to be truthful. Tesco 99 is Optimax but claimed at 99 Octane but my V8 Carbed Hybrid ran worse so I haven't touched it since. mind the timing is advanced as far as possible to get it to run OK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernchris Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Octane rating is not the only factor you have to look at!! Oxegen content plays a masssive part of DET protection,the lesser content is better for turbo charged engines. On the GRP'N' subaru engine back in 97/98 we used to map them on pump fuel,avgas,Elf turbo max,elf Turbo Plus and Carless. If you compared the ignition curve from a 98 pump map to one of say Elf turbo max there would be as much as 8-10 degrees of extra advance which equated to 40-55 nm of extra torque with no det evident at all. Avgas is probably the best compromise, pretty cheap £1.00 pr ltr ish with a 101 ron guaranteed and a mid level oxegen content,only thing is it kills wide band lamda sensors for fun. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 BMW suggest Optimax (>98 Octane) for all their cars but can't see it some how, average BM's have a safe ECU map so it isn't going to use the extra Octane boost anyway!Used it 99% of the time in my M5 couldn't realy tell to be truthful. Same here- i have a 540 touring which should be a pretty quick car, but it's as slow as bag of old nails- i then find out it only has a 9:1 cr!!!!! so really shouldn't expect much i guess. as to your hybrid- you may well have got pretty good performance with optimax if you had retarded the timing. I had a 4.0 RV8 with a 10.2:1 CR and it ran like a dream when tuned for optimax- also did 20mpg average! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Howdy. I'm lost. How is oxygen related to 'octane rating'? Is there some direct relation ship - are they inversely related? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Ian - it's hard to argue with that kind of logic. Unless you're rich, never see track time and want to drive fast on the roads (when not caught in traffic...!).I've no doubt that it'd give better performance with the right engine - sure. >"how much will it cost to make a 300bhp V8 jump to 354............ A lot" Not necessarily, I'd imagine the same sort of increase in a V8 going from 91 octane to around 100 in a suitably tuned engine which is running at retarded timing on the 91. Hell, for a few hundred quid you can add an easy 100 HP to a stock gen 3 chevy (sorry - it's just the engine I'm most familiar with). 50 is very cheap/straightforward. 100 HP from a baseline of 400 HP in a bone stock LS6 for example is 25% increase. B) Anyway, I'm still interested in the questions...? Al. Ok I used the V8 chevey is very easy The 1.8 freelander I have has a race engine which should be around 118 ish bhp but with the new head its 140-150 with the air box and exhaust etc I can't remember the correct amount from when it was built. that is a bhp up rate of around 30 on a small engine that cost around £2k ish (I got it as part of my sponsorship) running a race fuel will give me a little more say 5-10% at top end(not all comps allow these fuels) for a small engine like mine 140 bhp head = around £1500 (will allow the car to remain in production class) 160 bhp head= around £2000 (will not allow the car to remain in production classes) 190 bhp Head and block £3500 220 bhp Complete reboure £10,000 220+ bhp touring car stile engine £15-25,000 All cost + labour Chevy v8's start at around 300 bhp but Rover ones don't there more like 112 for a low comp up to around 220 for a off the shelf block this is probably a better example The Oxygen thing PTP tried to explain all that to me but I didn't understand it enough to re explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I don't really understand the oxygen thing either. What sort of oxygen is it? Is it dissolved oxygen in the fuel, oxidising agents that are not molecular oxygen that are present in the fuel, hydrocarbons in the fuel that contain oxygen (unlikely) or something else???? I'd be really interested to know as I've never come across this before. P.S. Jules, even the rough idea may be enough for me to get the idea of what's going on; I've had FAR too much to do with Chemistry over the years.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02GF74 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Howdy. I'm lost.How is oxygen related to 'octane rating'? Is there some direct relation ship - are they inversely related? Al. I donlt think it is; petrol is made up of hydrocarbons - by its name, melcules made up of hydrogen and carbon, no oxyen in it., If there was, then how what happens to the oxygen atoms? Do the bonds break (requires energy) to be remage (giviing off energy) so the the nett process giving out (heat) or absrbing engergy. The oxygen for combusting hydrcarbons comes form the air. But ofcourse it is not that simple since petrol contains additives and stuff, next to nothing of that is to supply oxygen in the fuel. ---------------- interesting: that article refers to :"for a typical non-oxygenated gasoline " so I stand to be corrected; maybe this ultra sooper dooper premium stuff has that; maybe bog stanadrd does too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Yeah, right, in which case I don't follow Northernchris' comments??? Chris? I though the oxygen was in the air - if only for safety's sake when transporting petrol?! What the hell IS octane rating anyway? You guys sound like you know a bit of chemistry...? I know a little bit about rocket fuels, but I'm lost on all this stuff & not sure a land rover engine (even 'race tuned') is gonna last long on a 'hypergolic' (ignites on contact) mixture of nitrogen tetra-oxide and monomethyl hydrazine... Might manage to put the cylinder head into orbit though! Haven't read it yet, but there looks to be some decent tech here: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-fa.../section-1.html Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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