pete3000 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Took the 110 out for a run this weekend, no weight in it really. Noticed a lack of effort when brake pedal pressed and remembered the friendly MOT guy last year saying the "minimum effort had just been met". I haven't used it much about 1000 miles since aug last year. I did bleed all the lines with fresh fluid and scuff the pads/disc up a bit around xmas. However reading a couple of posts on here I may start looking at the 300tdi vacuum pump tonight first? then move onto the servo. Noticed that the pump err3539? is £50 ish but britpart booooooo.... or bearmach £120 lr original £250 Am I right in thinking press brake a few time then start engine up and pedal should sink a bit as vacuum builds? if good move onto the servo/hoses? What sort of suction am I looking for at what sort of revs (idle ok?) And the next pre-emptive question would a non-abs 300tdi servo assy fit straight onto my non-abs 1986 bulkhead. Especially the disco1 300tdi servos are £20 upwards on ebay, would these fit? on are the master cylinders or unions/bits interchangeable? If I can get the stoppers sorted I am planning a diesel jim rear axle drum-disc upgrade in the next few months. TIA Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris200100 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 My 110 has spongy brake and it turns out to be the rear drums are out of adjustment and shoes need replacing check yours out first before you start else where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Thanks Chris, done the drums and shoes before MOT last year, the drum pistons/calipers were shot and needed replacing. Which lead to the head scratching after the MOT, so I put fresh fluid in and bled through after the shoes had bed in and adjusted. The job wasn't helped by paddocks sending 90" shoes through instead of 110" (shoes don't fit) Then forgot about over the winter, when the snow was about I never drove fast enough or stopped sharp enough to worry. After all this the brakes are still pants, and about the same with the engine off. I let it roll down a private track and compared it engine off and engine on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailysleaze Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 What sort of suction am I looking for at what sort of revs (idle ok?) The end of the pipe should be able to stick to your thumb and not fall off at idle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 The end of the pipe should be able to stick to your thumb and not fall off at idle Thanks for that, yes it does I've been out and checked it, vacuum pump looks ok. Still not much of a drop of the pedal once the engine starts (pumped the pedal four or five time to get it firm with engine off first)probably drops 1/2" very slowly. Is there any way to check if the servo is shot? If it is will a disco1 or a 300tdi fit my older pedalbox/bracket? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Might be a brake hose too, clamp the rear hose and test them again. If the brakes are now solid then the problem lies with the rear brake hose or the rear brakes. A similar course of action on each of the front hoses will point to problems there. Changing the rear axle to disc brakes is the best thing I've done to my 90, the drums were such a pain. Never quite got them right and was never happy with the pedal feel. They were especially useless after being in mud and muck, they just didn't work until cleaned thoroughly. Strangely enough, the drum brakes all round on my 88" are excellent, but then they are twin-leading-shoe on the front...and the entire system was brand new last year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Well, I have more news re: above. I adjusted the slack out on the snail cams on the back drums. poured fresh fluid through and bled the system through which felt better to be honest. Wednesday was the fateful MOT. It scraped through again brake advisory min effort has been met 62% las tyear was 67%, so has got worse again . I am seriously looking at the diesel jim disc conversion, particulary as I tow a sankey and a fair bit of weight in the back. Any one else experienced drum brakes this pants as standard? I asked the MOT station about servo being shot, but chap demo'd the servo working and I have checked vac pump, so am at a loss what else to do apart from bin the drums. TIA Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Barrett Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Are you sure there isn't a slight leak somewhere? Nothing dripping under the car? Did you bleed the entire system after your work last year or just the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Wabco make the original pumps and they are available recently for about 120 pounds if you look round. They give .8 bar when new, and a knackered one gives about .4 bar. The non return valve is cheaper to replace, and also wears. The other I think happens is that the O ring between the servo and master cylinder leaks, maybe as rust forms there, and can let it leak away - thats a cheap thing to try. I can say though I have just replaced vacuum pumps & NRV on both mine (did one and had to do the other) - both had seen better days and the difference is amazing. Particularly noticeable in reverse down a hill when before doing that you struggled to hold it. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 Are you sure there isn't a slight leak somewhere? Nothing dripping under the car? Did you bleed the entire system after your work last year or just the back? Bled the lot,RL, RR, FR, FL no leaks. fluid level, hasn't shifted. MOT didn't find any as I stayed with the test having a chat with the chap. He did say it was probably down to adjustment, but as I have taken the slack out of both back wheels as much as I can without the wheels seizing on, thats covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 What state are the caliper pistons in on the front axle. Corroded and seized they won't do their job. Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I'd check the master cylinder next there not expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Barrett Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Like discomikey says, you could be concentrating on the wrong end. I had an issue with my rear brakes locking up, despite the pistons being clogged up and barely working. I decided I'd overhaul the entire system and I'm glad I did. One front caliper had only one piston out of 4 working and the other had just 2 on the same side working because a couple of dust seals were missing. When I stripped the calipers I found them absolutely full of crud, I couldn't believe how much rubbish was behind the pistons and I had what looked like slate slurry come out of the fluid oilways. I don't think bleeding the system would have found these problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 What state are the caliper pistons in on the front axle. Corroded and seized they won't do their job. Mo Thanks Mo the calipers and discs are newish, they were done in 2008 along with 2" longer braided hoses front and back. Worth getting the wheels off and having a peek. As it's not done many miles they might need checking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Like discomikey says, you could be concentrating on the wrong end. I had an issue with my rear brakes locking up, despite the pistons being clogged up and barely working. I decided I'd overhaul the entire system and I'm glad I did. One front caliper had only one piston out of 4 working and the other had just 2 on the same side working because a couple of dust seals were missing. When I stripped the calipers I found them absolutely full of crud, I couldn't believe how much rubbish was behind the pistons and I had what looked like slate slurry come out of the fluid oilways. I don't think bleeding the system would have found these problems. Thanks for this Ian, and Mikey, pretty sure discs/calipers are good as above, rears were done a couple of years back with new shoes and cylinders, I think the whole lot should be better than it is and will start with a few cheap bits mentioned above, The master cylinder and servo are 1986 vintage(2.5NAD), whilst the vac pump and hose are 1996 (300tdi). May change the one way valve and master cylinder first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Well bit of an update, I changed the master cylinder and decided on a new servo while it was out. Then set about bleeding the master cylinder first then went round the brakes. Much better feel to the pedal spongieness has gone...... However the pedal doesnt do anything till halfway down (except feel like custard) then feels really solid. This is when the brakes actually work... for the last 2-3 inches and then not a great confidence inspiring braking effort. The old master cylinder was full of black crud and sludge when tipped out so I have no doubt this was the spongy bit. I have read a post about the rear wheel cylinders being a PITA to bleed the air out of, I am wondering if this may be my next task. I have to check the front/rear pipe clamping first as mentioned above. To make sure I am not chasing wild geese. Thanks for the tips so far, will continue and report back. I'd like to get the brakes reasonable before deciding on the disc conversion as I started pricing bits and got to £400 then decided to fix the master cylinder/drums first. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Is there adjustment on the actuating rod? I know there on Series vehicles, and this is pretty critical to getting the pedal to feel right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 The only adjustment I could see was on the servo where the pin goes through to the foot pedal fork. Although the one I took off didn't have an adjustment, I did look at the new one when I fitted it, it seems to be fitted at manufacture with no adjustment intended? the rod is threaded with the fork having a nut welded into the base of the fork. I tried to move it by hand but the whole rod starts to twist so I left it where it was. Is there any other point of adjustment? or should I revisit this nut? It was on by about 3-4 threads, can't see it being tightened much more as it will foul the brake pedal arm TIA Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just read through this and I notice you've fitted new rear shoes and drums. Pop the drums off and check the shoes are fitted corectly, can give just the symptoms you describe if they're fitted backwards or both leading one side and both trailing on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just read through this and I notice you've fitted new rear shoes and drums. Pop the drums off and check the shoes are fitted corectly, can give just the symptoms you describe if they're fitted backwards or both leading one side and both trailing on the other. Thanks, I'll have a look later if it stops raining, and try and get a photo or two. tried my mates 300tdi 90 brakes last night and mine is nothing anywhere close to it pedal wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris200100 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Check the condition of the adjusters too you may need new ones if they are the original ones, as they could be unadjusting themselves if they are smooth, after I changed mine they felt alot better when adjusting the shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Well a bit more progress today. had the servo back off to see if I was missing anything, no adjustment as nut was tight on thread and nowhere to put a spanner. On refit realise that the pedal needed to be pushed down about 1cm to allow the bush and washers to go through freely, so same as old one. Glad I didn't adjust it. Had a look at front end and again looks to be set locked at factory. Compared with old servo 2 nut assembly is just proud of the face of the servo, so I left this one alone as well. Refitted the master and bled it through. Next job was clamping the rear brake flexi above, in front and on top of the salisbury diff. Straight away the pedal was solid about an inch down so the fault lies in the rear brakes..... somewhere. Will post more when I get the brakes apart, tomorrow weather permitting. May need to pick your brains on how to bleed particulary tricky cylinders after I've check the shoes are on the right way round etc. Thanks for all the help so far. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Well stripped back end down yesterday, and just resulted in confusion. As it turns out the two adjustments on both sides are only moving one shoe. I can't see a difference in shoes i.e they aren't handed as far as I can tell. They were paddock specials they have same amount of friction material top and bottom so not on back to front. All four shoes look identical. This is reulting in the two which are turned over not having the spigots long enough to reach the snail cam adjusters. I am less convinced the springs are in the right place at the top of the shoes either. So this is the result for the mostly pants brakes, the master cylinder helped with the sponginess. Can anyone recomend a decent shoe set? for a 110 salisbury axle on a crossover from series to defender (I had problems with oil seal part numbers, and ended up buying both parts ). Thinking some thing branded mintex or such Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Just go to your local motor factor, and ask for them, then ask the make, they will probably be something respectable, certainly better than in a blue box from Paddocks... A photo of the shoes in place may help for spring placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 bit of an update, after looking at the shoes once they were off, I had fitted two leading shoes on one side and two trailing shoes on the other side, which reulted in the snail cams not catching one shoe on each side which in turn wouldn't let me bleed the back end up properly. Since bought some mintex shoes which are much nicer and more obvious which way round they should be fitted, i.e they have part numbers on and have obviously different amounts of brake material on. I remember fitting the previous shoes as they were brown parcel taped together as pairs, or so I thought. Have to admit there is much more useful info on here than trying to follow the haynes/LR w-shop manual. While I'm at it I'll replace the snail cams, which have seen better days and fit new hard brake pipes across the axle. Now can anyone recommend a decent brake flaring tool and remember if the unions on a 86 vintage drum salisbury are metric or imperial. no smilies as new forum s/w doesn't do firefox. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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