Tom1809 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm having a **** couple of weeks and it just seems to get worse. I had a coil pack fail on me Saturday evening after havng the car run for 3 months, I could accept this as these was second hand units through Nigel as part of my kit, so ordered up 2 Sunday evening and they arrived today, first one I noticed had a slight crack at the bottom and would only fire two cylinders before oozing white stuff out. Quickly changed it for the other one which had no signs of damage, I had it running for 20 minutes on the drive and headed off to do some shopping to quickly stop with smoke poring out of the engine bay and running on 6 cylinders, again in the same place as the first one the coil pack had failed, with the white stuff oozing out of the pack on to Nigel's brackets shorting it out, it eventually blew 10 amp fuse before I could disconnect the battery. What could cause three coil packs to fail? I am now stuffed for work again and might as well cancel the rest of the week off while a 2 minute job has now caused a couples of days work to fix the sodden thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Her are the three coil packs, from left to right. First one fitted and ran for 3 months, failed epically Saturday night, middle one that turned up damaged by mr postie, but can the white stuff that oozed out when tried to see it it will still work. End one third one that caused the fire and melting of half the wiring loom tonight that failed after half hour. The two that Nigel supplied As you can see both failed in the same place, just oozed white stuff out at different points. This is what stuck to the bracket after the third one failed, it caused a dead short that melted the 10amp fuse together causing it take longer to fail. the above resulted in this all the way back to the relay but took out the 6 wires to the coil as they where all wrapped together Now this is the first one the failed on Friday night, it went with a pop and stopped the car as it took the coil completely out unlike the other two that only half failed allowing running on 6 cylinders. It put a white powder all over the coil packs which can still be seen on the top I don't know what on earth could cause three coil packs to fail like this? The Edis seems to be working fine and totally un affected. The really I tested and tried on my fans and works fine. Me and nige are both wondering what the heck could cause them to fail in such a manner that would draw such amps needed to melt the wires like they did above. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Most people seem to be of the opinion that these rarely fail. The fact that you have had three successive units fail would make me suspect something else in the system. Has any of the wiring been disturbed of late? Maybe something else is shorting out and causing this problem. Another thought - are the coil pack brackets bent somehow? If they are, perhaps bolting the coil up with all 4 bolts is causing it to fracture the casing, just an idea, maybe???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 The general opinion is that the whole set up is pretty fool proof and really reliable, that I can believe. The system on my truck for the last 3 months has been faultless apart from my injectors neede replacing. The wiring hadn't being disturbed, and there is only three wires to a pack, one is which is a 12 volt switched live, the others go straight to the Edis unit. Nigel's brackets are straight and you would have to do something pretty major to bend then, coil pack number 2 which arrived with the crack in the bottom I didn't even fit as I wasn't thinking it work, I literally pluged it in and fired it up and it ran on 6 cylinders. I cant work out what would of caused it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Maybe a fault with the EDIS, I don't suppose you had a chance to see how hot they are getting in normal operation ? You can destroy coils like that by having the dwell set too high, makes me wonder if the EDIS is faulty causing the coil to be permanently energised. It'd work for a while but eventually the coil would overheat and meltdown internally. That would cause a constant high current flow (melting the fuse) on the lead up to failure and the white insulating "goo" would expand and crack the housing. In normal operation the coil is only energised for a short period prior to firing with the EDIS side of the winding connected to earth for a short period (the dwell). When the earth is removed the collapse of the field causes the spark. If the EDIS unit is earthing one or both of the windings on that coil all the time except when firing then the coil will get VERY hot after a while. You can get a similar effect on normal MegaSquirt setups by setting "inverted spark" to the wrong settings although normally that blows the coil driver apart before the coil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Unfortunately not, it was bloody hot 5 minutes after I removed the thing on road, too hot to handle with out having to pass one hand to the other. With the Edis set up you have 4 coils, A B C D. if memory serves me right with out looking at which way I wired it all the failures have been on coil c. Except for the first one that took out C and D. A and B have not been affected and is still the original coil supplied with the kit. Could this be a fault With the Edis on coil C and keeping it energised all the time and causing it to fail and dead short. I havnt changed any settings in my controller for about 3 weeks now and the car has been used daily since as it is my buisness vehicle, play and daily run around so I'm sure if I done something like that it would of reared its head much sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Unfortunately not, it was bloody hot 5 minutes after I removed the thing on road, too hot to handle with out having to pass one hand to the other. With the Edis set up you have 4 coils, A B C D. if memory serves me right with out looking at which way I wired it all the failures have been on coil c. Except for the first one that took out C and D. A and B have not been affected and is still the original coil supplied with the kit. Could this be a fault With the Edis on coil C and keeping it energised all the time and causing it to fail and dead short. I havnt changed any settings in my controller for about 3 weeks now and the car has been used daily since as it is my buisness vehicle, play and daily run around so I'm sure if I done something like that it would of reared its head much sooner. Certainly a possibility. On an EDIS setup there's nothing to change re dwell etc... as that's all handled internally by the EDIS, all the MS does is tell it what advance to use. Quite possibly a breakdown in the coil driver inside the EDIS unit. With the EDIS unplugged and the coil pack with 12v to it just check that there is 12v at all the coil wires at the EDIS plug. If coil C has a lower voltage than the others you may have a short to earth somewhere in the wiring between the coil and the EDIS. When you do power it up fully connected be ready to turn everything off as quick as you can if the coil starts to get warm to the touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well unfortunalty with all the wires melted back to Edis unit for the C coil and and the 12 volt live to that coil I wouldn't be able to tell as they have to be replaced. Is there a way of testing the Edis unit with out risking this all again? Cheers Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'd go with dodgy edis module, in 4 years of daily use I've only had 3 secondhand coils fail, never in quick succession though and none have popped like that. They usually just seem to stop working, with little warning beforehand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Tom Sounds like a really ****y week I'm not going to do the "Coils were OK when they left here stuff " I'll send you another 2 x Coil packs FOC, I may also have a couple of 2nd hand Coil pack plugs kicking about to sort you out and help replace the melted existing ones etc - but take the advice re testing the EDIS so these last a little longer I've never seen this before - impressive in a Ooooo F*** sort of way foryou I'd guess ! We all have cr*p weeks,.... help sometimes helps ! - hope the packs plugs and testing sorts yours for the better Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thank you nige, sorry you beared the brunt of it, chilled out now there's a fair few split logs and I really apprechiate your help. I will test the Edis unit and confirm its ok or not. Now before I do any damage testing it wrong could someone confirm my theory on how to test it. Would connecting a dial multi meter to 12 volts and then the other end to correct wire for coils C or D on the edis pig tail and cranking it over show a fault? As in if there's always a circuit permantly or if the dial moves back and forth. I once I get a coil pack ill wire it all up again and check that I get 12 volts to it and do I expect to see a continous 12 volts out of either pin on the side? Thanks Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 it depends on the supersession level of the coil packs too (i used to work at a ford dealer). the early ones are prone to fail every couple of years in normal use, ford have superceded them several times, and the cheap aftermarket ones are the old stock from ford, sold off after they revise them. generally speaking, avoid fuelparts, qx, anything in a plain white box, intermotor etc....get genuine ford ones from the main dealer - yes they'll be pricey, but they will be more reliable than the cheap stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Maybe start with a lower fuse in the coil supply? Fuses should be blowing before wires start smoking... Could be a fault with the EDIS or the coil wire could be chafing to ground, although if it's all melted now you won't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 it depends on the supersession level of the coil packs too (i used to work at a ford dealer). the early ones are prone to fail every couple of years in normal use, ford have superceded them several times, and the cheap aftermarket ones are the old stock from ford, sold off after they revise them. generally speaking, avoid fuelparts, qx, anything in a plain white box, intermotor etc....get genuine ford ones from the main dealer - yes they'll be pricey, but they will be more reliable than the cheap stuff. If you're going to buy new you'd be better off using Land Rover ones, never had any problems with mine and if I want a new set of HT leads they're available off the shelf in any flavour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iomlt Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 i can second Dave W set up. and you can splash out on magicore leads to for the extra BLINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG factor..... and for the added benefits of course..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Tom 2x foc coil packs and I found 1 x plug sh was posted today Whilst coil packs do fail - as I said to you the fact you have had the number you have all go Down And so quickly I think takes the poss of Coincidence of faulty cool packs out of the equation and I would suspect something else "killing" them Anyway - you have packs and a plug tomm Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thank you nige the help is much appreciated, well the only thing other than faulty coil packs that could kill it is going to be the Edis, what I am going to do is try a 5 amp fuse first and see what I need to work up too till I can get something close but ill blow before the cable melts. , i managed to get some new cable today as well for £3.50 for 36 meters of cable. On top of it after bashing the jungle drums rather loudly I have a few Leads on my stolen bike but not going to get to carried away cause tomorrow I could be baffled even more if its not the Edis, no shorts and coil packs are fine. Will keep updated on my findings, worse case I chuck a td5 in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Good luck with the bike! Oh and the coil packs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Dave W is on the money but also check the alternator voltage with the engine running (once you get it going again) . The MsECU & the EDIS module are quite tolerant to higher voltages, but the Ford coil packs will get quite upset ................. anything above 14.4 is trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 Thanks you nige they all turned up and in good condition, I spent Thursday re wiring it and I can say I have spark but it dosnt want to fire. I have done the usual things like check I'm getting fuel, spark, ht to leads to the correct coils etc. ecu works. I do need to look at what the ecu is saying as I have noticed the ecu keeps the fuel pump running and thinks the engine is running despite it not. Now me someone correct me if I'm wrong but the ecu relies on a signal from the Edis unit to fire the injectors and tell the ecu it needs keep the fuel pump running, this in turn could mean there is a problem within the the Edis unit, or the vr sensor. Is it possible for the vr sensor to give a incorrect signal to the Edis unit to trick it in to thinking that there is rpm, but it don't spark so kind of rules that one out. Any ideas? Thanks tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 VR sensors are just a magnetic coil so generally failure is just dead-no signal. Given the history of exploding coils I'd look closely at your EDIS unit, see if you can swap a spare in. Very rare for any of this stuff to fail, a dead EDIS would explain the coil deaths and ECU strange behaviour. The ECU relies on the PIP signal from the EDIS, if it's showing RPM then it's got something on the PIP line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Well brought a new Edis unit from nige, plugged it and found she ran on 6 again, found she killed two plugs that she was on coil pack c, now thinking I'd got it running right it's ****ing doing it again, I've had enough of it. She will run but I have to near enough put my foot flat to the floor to get her to fire, then once she's running it will idle for a bit, the. All of a sudden the engine will cut out and then the ecu comes back on the fuel pump continues to run. I've changed all relays, checked every bit of wiring, I've changed the Edis pig tail again, all new loom to the coils, the only thing left can be the vr sensors but it dosnt seem right, I have a stim kit and can chuck the ecu on there and it behaves properly, does everything it should and ran it 12 hour continuously with any hitches. Any bright ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Have you tried swapping the VR sensor polarity ? I've seen problems similar to those you describe using standard MS setups with the VR sensor direct into the ECU, reversed polarity sensors (or the sensor too far away from the trigger wheel) can cause some really odd problems. I'd assume that the EDIS unit would have similar issues if the VR sensor polarity was reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 The Edis unit won't work if the polarity is the wrong way round, no I havnt got another vr sensor to try tonight, something ill have to buy tomorrow to try. I can't see how in the last 3 months of it being running that the vr sensor would of moved as I've checked it and marked it with paint when I first set it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Sorry, forgot you'd had it running OK previously ! I'll have another ponder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.