Defender 110s, depreciation, practicality and me

[GBMUD]

I have the opportunity to buy a new Defender 110. While it will be a business purchase, it will be primarily for personal use - I will use it as my main car, to tow a trailer two or three times a month and will use it as a 'motorhome' too with roofrack/rooftent/awning and some 'expedition' modifications, though these will mostly be bolt-on or tied down rather than permanent additions.

I have no need to carry more than one passenger at a time, and when practical I plan to sleep inside the car rather than have the additional weight, height and drag of a roofrack/tent so I am leaning towards the idea of a hardtop vehicle rather than a CSW or Utility-Wagon which cost more to buy and have windows, seats and doors which I do not need and which will be impractical when trying to set up a bed inside - they also interfere with having a flat floor which I do not like in my current 110SW though there is more space once the seats are removed due to not having wheel-arch boxes in the way.

I plan to buy the most basic spec vehicle and to add the essential optional extras of electric windows and air conditioning. I would expect to sell the vehicle after three years with no more than 40k on the clock - probably less, possibly more, one never knows...

So, this brings me to my question. What, in your opinion or experience, should I buy if I want to reduce my depreciation losses to a minimum in cash terms. If (as a simple example) all Defenders loose 30% of their value in three years then I would be better off buying the cheapest possible vehicle as 30% of a £20000 car is £6000 cost of ownership over three years. If, however, Station Wagens, XS derivatives, metallic paint models or cars with furry dice only loose 10% over three years then it might make sense to spend £27000 up front in anticipation of more money and a lower cash depreciation at sale time. I am afraid I may not have phrased my question very clearly but I hope you can pick the bones out of it. The percentage figures I have used are just for example and for the sake of simple arithmetic. If anyone has actual figures from personal experience then I would be keen to hear them.

If I were to find a nearly new, cancelled order, ex demo etc. that fit my needs then I assume I would be bettor off with that? Any thoughts? If anyone has any suggestions of how to buy the cheapest 110, haggling tips, specific dealers, brokers etc. I would be very grateful.

I have posted my question on a couple of different forums as I am looking for as many different opinions as possible, I hope this does not offend anyone.

Cheers

Chris

[ajh]

Why buy a Defender if you're just going to sell it once Defenders are long-gone and there isn't an alternative from the same vendor? Not trying to be snide, if you're just planning on selling it wouldn't something else be more suitable?

[dailysleaze]

Looking through ebay:

2012 Defenders are sitting around £27-28k with 5-15k miles. XS are at the top of this range.

2010 Defenders are sitting around £23-24k with 10-40k miles. XS similarly at the upper end

2009 Defenders are sitting between £18-22k with 20-30k miles. XS similarly at the upper end

2008 Defenders are sitting between £18-21k with 30-50k miles. XS similarly at the upper end. Hard tops with 70k miles are £12k

I suspect the end of the warranty period creates a drop in value, so to buy a brand new vehicle and sell at the end of the warranty (3 years?) would see the largest depreciation.

As the vehicles age, the price range widens. We all know that Defenders are valued on condition rather than age/mileage, so to buy in good condition and keep in good condition is what it's all about. An extra £1k on a newer vehicle might be worth an extra £2.5k 3 years later. Looking at the ranges above, you have the ability to spend £24k and sell for £18k, or spend £23k and sell for £21k, depending on how good a condition you keep it in and how good it is when you buy it.

Hard tops/double cabs all appear lower in price, but how this tallies in % depreciation i'm unsure as ebay doesn't have many newer hard tops available. I would think that hard tops are fleet run and sold after 3 years having done lots of miles. Once you get to 10+ years I think that's where you see Station Wagons holding their value considerably over Hard tops.

[Snagger]

Station Wagons will hold their value better because they are more desireable and are regarded as being treated better (not necessarily true, of course). The higher the spec, the more this applies, so an XS will drop less (in % terms) than a County, which will drop less than a basic spec model.

The big thing to factor in is the looming axing of the Defender, currently scheduled for 2015. Normally, this would cuase a big drop in residual values as the new model replaces the old, but as yet, most Defender owners are showing remarkable loyalty to the current model and incredible scepticism to whatever comes along to replace it - everything LR has put forward has been rejected by Defender users in blunt, even aggressive terms. If this persists, used Defender values might actually match or even exceed current new prices; look at prices for legal Defenders in the US for an example. However, we have been here before - this is not the first time that LR has announced a deadline for the Defender, only for it to slip by and nothing to change. It is interesting to note that LR are building a Defender assembly plant for CKD kit assembly in Sri Lanka. That doesn't sound like a viable business plan for a soon to be cancelled model.

[studmuffin]

Why buy a Defender if you're just going to sell it once Defenders are long-gone and there isn't an alternative from the same vendor? Not trying to be snide, if you're just planning on selling it wouldn't something else be more suitable?

Totally agree. If you only intend to keep for 3 years there are many other models that may suit - possibly a Jap pick-up with a demountable camper top? you have to decide what you really want.

Most Landy owners buy one to keep solely on the basis that they cannot live without one. The cost of buying, running, and mods sometimes takes second place. Plus at the moment because of desirability due to stopping UK production in the near future, value wise it is what snooker players call a shot to nothing.

Cheers

Barry

[muddy]

I think you/we need to see some hard figures first ie hardtop, utility, station wagon even a hi cap? All with and without ac and ew and then the true price of ac and ew fitting.

I've always though there was little demand for 110 hard tops and they are certainly the cheapest model to buy s/h also have you considered how quickly you can sell?

Do you need 3500kg towing and or the added ruggedness/ ground clearence of a defender?

I work at a tractor dealership and the amount of extras we have to bolt on when they can be factory ordered always bemuses me, the amount of work involved removing trim and pipework and securing etc etc is not to be underestimated.

Just my 2p Will.

Ps. Ripon landrover is part of the company you might want to try us we sell a lot of defenders.

[Mo Murphy]

I think a nice 90 would suit you better, Chris

Regards

Mo

[steve200TDi]

Hi Chris,

I have been looking at 110 hardtops of the later TD5 variety as they seem to be the cheapest land rover out there, as maybe not many people want a big defender for only two people, not that I need another land rover!........

You mention about getting a 'new' or 'newish' land rover, but you could find a tidy, late TD5, hardtop for a lot less including electric windows, but I'm not sure about air con.

Steve

@ Mo: Chris has got a 90!.......oh and a 110.......

[tacr2man]

You would lose less money buying a motorhome , coz it seems that is what you need most ?

[Rightfoot]

Hi Chris,

Assuming its a business purchase and you will be reclaiming VAT, you wont want to be buying anything thats classed as a car - so that rules out Station Wagons, you will have to buy the Utility Wagon (if you're going for five doors). Also bear in mind that VED is much lower on a commercial vehicel than a car (ask me how I know having just bought a 57 plate station wagon car for personal use).

I dont have figures but my thoughts would be to go for Utilty Wagon, take the seats out and store them until times come to sell. A Utilty Wagon is only £2k more than a hard top (list price), and you get much more versatility in it. An XS is the only one that gives a/c as standard, but is £4.5k more than a basic, while a/c is only £1k.

I'm guessing that an ex demonstrator coul be an option if you need VAT qualifying, or foes it have to be new?

Jonathan

[GBMUD]

Thanks everyone.

I want a new Defender110, end of discussion. I need the space, some towing ability (though unlikely to need the full 3500kg) and 4x4/ground clearance. Thanks for the other ideas though, it does help me think through my options. I also know that I want a new one, even though I could enjoy lower depreciation on a third hand tricycle I just want a new car with a warranty.

I also know that hard tops are the cheapest second hand. But they are also £4500+VAT less to buy new and I will not have unwanted and potentially awkward seats, windows and doors. I think ALL Defenders are commercials now as far as VAT/VED is concerned.

I do only plan to keep the car for three years, though if after that time things look different (what will the new Defender look like? How will classic Defender prices react?) I may decide to keep the car longer - I suppose it will depend on any number of factors...

My only real decision is whether the reduced depreciation of a higher spec model makes the extra initial expenditure worth-while.

Thanks again

Chris

[nidge]

110 Hardtops can be a pair in the arse, to load and use every day...as your only access is thru the rear door....climbing in and out everytime something slides forward to the bulkhead. Also they are not as big inside as you'd expect, due to the full lentgh "wheel arches".

110 Utility with seats removed, will give better access and a good bit more useable space, will hold its value too...

N.

[GBMUD]

I think we have decided on the UtilitySW now, once all the desired extras are added it seems to make sense to spend another few quid and get the XS, so that is what we will probably do. I have never had a new car before, I suppose that the last 10 years as a reformed smoker will probably pay for it.

Chris