Pepé le Pew Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I suspect you are correct, sadly. So do I. The route to take than would be to have the steel of an original one and a pattern one analysed and compared. Any expert in metallurgy could tell you then if the pattern one is of the correct quality and up to the job. If not than you could use his/hers findings as evidence. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I wonder if anyone has enough money and would be prepared to do a full on independently assessed test to destruction of two new teflons from various suppliers bought at random around the UK and the genuine parts teflon purchased from any old main dealer? Only then will there be real proof of fatal flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Within lr4x4's large membership, i' am surprised there haven't been any engineering types with mettalurgical knowledge that hasn't commented on Mr Noisey's photos re their opinion of materials used. I'm no engineer but it's obvious to me that those balls are not only 'not fit for service', but are downright dangerous and the firms selling them are criminally negligent in not having critical to safety components like this subjected to qualified engineering analyses before putting them on the market. One would hope that this thread doesn't die and the subject forgot until some poor sod crashes his Landrover into a bus full of nuns and school kids ! It really is that serious ! With almost 1000 views for this thread , I don't think too many of us here are taking issue as seriously as it deserves to be ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I wonder if anyone has enough money and would be prepared to do a full on independently assessed test to destruction of two new teflons from various suppliers bought at random around the UK and the genuine parts teflon purchased from any old main dealer?Only then will there be real proof of fatal flaws. I think the problem with this is knowing if the problem is historic stock or current stock .... I think within one of Mr Noisy's posts, they could have been installed a few years (don't expect the passage of time to have affected them like that) .... hence they could have been from a bad batch ... ....After the second (the other side) I spoke to Britpart directly (no longer had dealings with that parts supplier anyway) and the man I spoke to was very keen to not take responsibility, another swivel ball was sent a small amount of complaint.I don't blame Britpart for this tbh because they are not manufacturing the product and I do not expect there is more than one quality availableMy contact did try quite hard to convince me my part was not a Britpart unit though because apparently the machined type I was using (the recess inside to allow for the brass bush on a 10 spline discovery shaft) was only just made available by themselves thus I could not have purchased it from them a couple of years previousThis is rubbish if course, the parts people I was dealing with solely supplied Britpart!.... Again... needs a parts company to put their head above the parapet and say.... we had a problem, now sorted, X number may be in circulation .... all new ones have the following markings...... (cynical -> it will never happen due to recall + liability costs [more than happy to be proved wrong though]) honest company usually becomes a well respected company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I wonder where these swivel balls are manufactured, I'll hazard a guess and say China. A couple of folks I know in various manufacturing industries have had trouble with Chinese stuff. The first batch is perfect and to full spec, lulling you into a false sense of security, as more orders are filled the quality and spec falls. As I said earlier, sooner or later it will cost some poor sod their life. Resellers (Britpart, Bearmach etc) ALL need to get their acts together, at the end of the day, they are the ones who will be prosecuted when the inevitable happens... I too have heard of this, it was described to me as quality fade. Less scrupulous Chinese manufacturers will produce a product at a loss or minimal profit to win a contract and then reduce the quality of the materials and processes so as to increase/create profit. There is a good book called 'Poorly made in China' that goes into it in more detail and is worth a read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Hello again As a prolific breaker of swivel balls (some poetic licence perhaps) I am glad that this subject has raised the eyebrows of a few folk. I am most surprised and have been since my initial breakage sometime in I think 2010 when the ball was only a few months old where to be honest I don't think a single person in the world had broken a swivel ball that this issue is not more well known. Then on an off road day in 2013 I break the other side (same original 2010 vintage item) and there is another person on the same site who broke a ball at the same time as me. Then my friend breaks one and another breaks one on the same trip in late 2013. Is this something which is filtering through now? The swivel is clearly the thinnest part of the axle assembly and therefore needs to be far stronger material than regular mild steel. It even looks a bit queer being so narrow throated on the end of a chunky axle. But what we can do I don't know. Perhaps an article to a magazine? Or all the magazines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailysleaze Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Perhaps an article to a magazine? Or all the magazines? Unfortunately I think the magazines are in bed with the suppliers. LRO especially, their workshop sections/sponsorship/adverts/price comparisons all promote the blue box when they should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 agreed, watchdog would be more use than Britparts marketing department at lro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Ah I see. It's only a very specific market though. I sent the pictures in to total off road for their chaos section, pics printed with explanation but not an eyebrow raised, maybe they're used to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailysleaze Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 It's probably worth sending a letter to see how far you get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I wouldn't knock the magazines .... they after-all provide a means to attract other enthusiasts (daft sods like me!) to the marque and keep the interest alive I would have said. It's clearly a manufacturing issue, and the only way to improve their relationship with parts users, protect their brands, and demonstrate that they are progressive is to engage in discussions like this and offer some reassurance that at least things will be looked into and reported back on. Money (sponsorship) is money afterall, not many of us would turn it down given freely and ask too many questions about it if it kept your business, industry + readership interest afloat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yeah could draft an email up and send it to various places, won't cost more than an hour or so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 So looking at the latest BP price list. They show only a OEM swivel, which "should" mean it is from the same supplier LR uses. 50 pounds wholesale. The genuine is shown at 290 pounds for earlier ones and 115 for later ones. Be interesting to see if they are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Isn't there a minimum British Standard for quality that non genuine parts suppliers have to adhere to, at least on components critical to vehicle safety?As Robert suggested earlier, the suppliers will not voluntarily stand up and admit there is a problem due to the massive costs involved with recall/replacement, plus reimbursement of any labour charges, and the odd insurance claims for vehicle damage or personal injury due to failure of these POS. If you UK enthusiasts want your LandRover part suppliers to ever lift their game, I think there is a possible legal opportunity here with the swivel issue to expose these shonky operators, and to either force them out of business, or force them to cease stocking and selling unsafe substandard garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Isn't there a minimum British Standard for quality that non genuine parts suppliers have to adhere to, at least on components critical to vehicle safety?As Robert suggested earlier, the suppliers will not voluntarily stand up and admit there is a problem due to the massive costs involved with recall/replacement, plus reimbursement of any labour charges, and the odd insurance claims for vehicle damage or personal injury due to failure of these POS. If you UK enthusiasts want your LandRover part suppliers to ever lift their game, I think there is a possible legal opportunity here with the swivel issue to expose these shonky operators, and to either force them out of business, or force them to cease stocking and selling unsafe substandard garbage. No is the quick answer to this. Unless genuine, they can sell any rubbish basically. The liability thing with the case here discussed, I think is going to be a waste of time due to the +50mm offset wheels. Thats 85 mm further outboard than standard, even if the genuine part breaks, i doubt there is any come back in this case. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 No is the quick answer to this. Unless genuine, they can sell any rubbish basically. The liability thing with the case here discussed, I think is going to be a waste of time due to the +50mm offset wheels. Thats 85 mm further outboard than standard, even if the genuine part breaks, i doubt there is any come back in this case. Daan Agreed, defo.However akso a vehicle on 8" sensible offset wheels and another on standard LR wheels has recently broken new swivels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think you would have to break a set that had been fitted by a land rover dealer to a completely standard defender, and break them driving legally on the road to have any chance in court otherwise I think there would be too much legal wiggle room? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think you would have to break a set that had been fitted by a land rover dealer to a completely standard defender, and break them driving legally on the road to have any chance in court otherwise I think there would be too much legal wiggle room? Or pay to have a set professionally tested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Exactly. It's generally too much of a grey area. But I'm not looking for any refunds, if rather pay double for a component that was going to work. I don't trust genuine LR balls, I think they will be identical, the price is just dealer profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 indeed, although testing would probably give you a number, it would presumably be up to you to prove that number was not fit for purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Good point, testing a teflon against a chrome may indicate how much weaker they are and give you a good starting point..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I will try to get hold of a pair of tatty/sacrificial balls, one chrome one Teflon/spurious and will start with a spark test! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepé le Pew Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 To make a test complete it might be better to test a genuine teflon ball next to a pattern teflon ball, a genuine chrome ball and a pattern chrome ball . I find it hard to beleive that the teflon coating(or the process of applying it) might have something to do with the failures. The grade of steel used seems more plausible. Eric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 It's the steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Badly wish Ashcroft made an HD version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.