Axle Options

[taazzukcb]

Howdy All,

The Merc powered Defender is moving along and all the while I've been considering axle set-ups and gotten myself in a right old tiz over it, so seeking some advice on various set-up.

By the time it's all done I should be putting out a fair old chunk of HP and NM and would like to run 35's or 37's and Ik know the Rover axles aren't going to like it in any way shape or form, so been considering various options:

1) Complete Ashcroft Internals - Even Dave wasn't sure his kit would cope. And said he would not put any warrenty or gaurentee on his stuff in my use, so that's out the window.

2) Cruiser 80 Axles - Correct diff offset, but smaller 8" diffs compared to Y61?

3) Y61 Axles - I know the centre rear diff, but that can be dealt with. Bit strong diffs and bigger shafts compared to LC80 I think. Only rear locker, can always put Terrano LSD in front.

4) Salisbury Axles F&R - Dana 30/35 spline conversion (though can't seem to get in touch with Keith and RovingTracks and cant find anyone else that does it, anyone got any contacts for this?).

5) Rover Axle tubes with HD LC80 Cruiser internals and diffs (30 spline conversion throughout)

As far as I'm aware, that's about my limit of options. Budget wont stretch to Spiders or Force axles.

Any help appreciated!

Cheers All!

[Bowie69]

From a budget POV, you won't go wrong with a set of LC80s fitted with some Longfield CV joints to uprate them.

Salisbury, with the best will in the world, are old and expensive, and unless you get some NOS ones, probably knackered.

You could do LC80 rear and Patrol front? the radius arms pretty much bolt in to the LR chassis.... then you just sort spring mounts etc.

[Soren Frimodt]

Something completely different; how about Portals? You don't get cheaper strong factory locked axles than Unimog. But they are quite cumbersome to fit. But then there are Volvo's which are no harder to fit than any Toy, Nissan, Yank axles. Also quite strong and should be able to deal with your setup. But of course these are more expensive, but as soon as you factor in a good set of Jap axles and lockers, its creeping up there anyways.

If portals are not your thing I'd probably say Waggon Dana44's (they're the HD version) With stronger shafts and U-Joints or a set of Dana60's they should be able to handle it as is

[Bowie69]

I saw you'd replied here Soren, and thought "I know what he is suggesting!"

LC80s have lockers in them if you buy them in right spec (UK spec have them as standard, I think). Used to be able to get then around £600/pair.

[Soren Frimodt]

Okay not bad then, and I take it uprated CV's aren't much money either? because they definitely are a must if its suppose to be any stronger than Ashcrofted LR axles. I for one don't personally get why the LR axles get such a bad rep. My Brother absolutely hammers on his Ashcrofts with 38"x15,5"-16" M/T Baja Claws and a well tweaked 200 tdi, landing hard on the front with lockers engaged and the wheels spinning, no problem! After he upgraded the R&P as well the weak point now seems to be the props. This has been bettered by fitting props form an old 110" with the larger U-joints as per Series.

That said, of course I do realize that an LR axle with all these components will set you back quite a bit. So other options may well be cheaper in the end

[landroversforever]

Interested to know what power output you're expecting? 400bhp and the associated torque (I'm guessing around the 6-700nm ish) is what I'm working on for my setup. I'm a mechanically sympathetic driver and I won't be competing. I've got pegged ashlockers front and rear, rear is all ashcrofts, front is Kam shafts and CVs with Ashcroft flanges. I figure that if I have problems I'll have some 300M shafts made up.

[Soren Frimodt]

One day, I'll learn how to handle my computer here's a vid of my Brother:

[taazzukcb]

It should be a touch over 400bhp and a touch over 800nm based on similar set-up figures.

I know the Salisbury's are old etc, hence why the Dana 60 30/35 spine conversion was appealing. Turns the Salisbury's into what they should of been. However still cant find any source of these kits.

I have a feeling RoverTracks/RovingTracks (Keith) maybe no more!

I've considered portals too. But Mogs are super duper heavy. 303's I like but I've never found any for sale. This is also a motor that could also be used for daily commutes too, so it has to take motorway speeds for good distances. I know there's 'High Speed' mogs, but even they're only designed for 55/60mph I've read. This right?

I know the Ashcroft stuff could probably work for general duties, but to spend that much and Dave telling me nothing would be covered, it's put me right off. It was good of him to be totally honest, so not putting them down over it!

I've found a potential Dana 60 pair, but they're nye on £3k!!!

The LC80 internals in Rover axle casinging conversion uses 300M material. How would this sound option wise?

Another thing is the LC80/Patrols also have stronger brake set-ups too I've been told. Always a bonus. They're both heavy heavy motors!

Appreciate all this advice chaps!

[landroversforever]

I don't know about the Mogs, but I know the Volvos are available in at least a couple of different ratios.

[taazzukcb]

Interesting ... They use their own R&P?

Just seems like there's none available. Couple of semi-restored C303's about, but they're talking £7,000-8,000. To much just to rip axles off!

[landroversforever]

From a quick google:

7.55:1

7.09:1

5.99:1

Edited to add I think that's overall axle ratio including the portal reduction.

[Bowie69]

Okay not bad then, and I take it uprated CV's aren't much money either?

They *used* to be £300 a pair, so pretty affordable against an Ashcroft setup. Yes they are better brakes, from memory anyways, a bit wider track too. You can also get hi-steer stuff more easily for it, from the states.

I think if you went to the bother of putting LC80 parts in a rover casing, you will be up there with Ashcroft figures again, with little gained except a load of non-standard parts.

[dangerous doug]

If you buy a Salisbury front make sure you get the panhard rod, track rod and drag link, lt230 front output flange and propshaft. They also use the narrower radius arms

If you don't get all of that with it it will cost you later to the point where it's not worth it....... Don't ask how I know.

The CVs are also standard 10 spline

[Ex Member]

If you go the Dan60/Salisbury route, you would need to go 35 spline. 30 spline is only 15% larger than 24 spline.

Rovertracks closed shop years ago.

Jack McNamara in Australia will do a 35 spline kit.

Pretty sure a LC80 axles would need a complete internal upgrade to handle what you are proposing. They are not much better than Rover carp stock.

You need to price it all out. There are no cheap options for that much torque.

[Soren Frimodt]

There are no cheap options for that much torque.

perhaps there is? A helium filled shoe for the Right foot?

[taazzukcb]

That 15% though will make a reasonable difference. But obviously, the 35 spline route is better!

Shame about RoverTracks. Didn't know what had happened to him.

Have you got a link to McNamara? Only thing I could find was McNamara diffs. Is that the same fellow?

You surprise me about LC80's not being much better than Rovers. What about Patrol?

More thinking to do!

[Bowie69]

Pretty sure a LC80 axles would need a complete internal upgrade to handle what you are proposing. They are not much better than Rover carp stock.

My understanding is somewhat different! They are used very successfully in the states, with up to 40" tyres, rock crawling, which is somewhat harder on stuff that the muddy off roading we get in the UK.

As long as you upgrade the CVs, the rest is pretty bullet proof.

[De Ranged]

LOL Reds got it wrong, LC80 stuff is strong enough to handle this sort of HP... the local trials guys are pushing that short of HP and more (know of 1 that is over 600hp....) the standard CV's have a strength similar to a hilux longfield and you can get a Longfield version for them that is even stronger! search Pirate this has been proven on test benches.... its old stuff

If you have any doubts search UTube for NZ trials I think you'll enjoy watching

There is a catch with them tho... that is the diff at 400hp you are going to want to run the lower number diffs 4.5:1 or less and preferably use aftermarket R&P's another route that I have done is if your willing to do the work the Cruiser 9.5" diff will take these axles but you have to make your own housings at this point you have something that is what locally we'd call bombproof for comp on 35"s with what ever HP

[Ex Member]

LOL Reds got it wrong, LC80 stuff is strong enough to handle this sort of HP... the local trials guys are pushing that short of HP and more (know of 1 that is over 600hp....)

Not stock. You need aftermarket R&Ps, shafts, CVs... All the internals as I CLEARLY stated.... Stock is easy to break with a stock LC80 driving it. Seen many broken Land Cruisers.

[Ex Member]

That 15% though will make a reasonable difference. But obviously, the 35 spline route is better!

Shame about RoverTracks. Didn't know what had happened to him.

Have you got a link to McNamara? Only thing I could find was McNamara diffs. Is that the same fellow?

You surprise me about LC80's not being much better than Rovers. What about Patrol?

More thinking to do!

The 15% is nothing that will help you. 35 spline is 80% stronger.

Yes, McNamara diffs.

Patrols are stronger, but would still need upgrading for what you want.

You could always drive around with a light foot...but then what is the point of putting the engine in?

[Cynic-al]

From my experience the Toyota axles are significantly stronger than the land rover ones. Everything is bigger including the casing, the diff locks are part of the factory design rather than the arb shoehorned in which some people seem to suffer air leaks with. Parts are cheap enough although no where near as available than land rover stuff. The ashcroft route has the advantage that everything is nut and bolt but if you don't mind doing the work (and it's and lot of work) then the Toyota route can be cheaper. They're slightly wider too. My engine was no where near 400hp but I could sit foot to the floor with all lockers in waggling the wheel from side trying to get through something with big tyres and nothing broke. Some things are nicer on the land rover like bolt on swivels rather than weld on.

A friend was stuck in a gully with a flat tyre and with his foot to the floor in 2nd on full lock dropped the front locker in and sheared all 6 bolts and 2 dowels holing the end cap on. All other axle components survived, that's good going if you ask me!

The early ones had smaller brakes and you can fit 15" rims, the later bigger brakes and 16" rims which is worth knowing depending on your wheel choice. You can get different ratio diffs depending on auto or manual which is handy depending what tyres you get.

They say Nissan are stronger, I don't know personally.

A note on if being a road car, personally if your considering 37" tyres I would be happy cruising at 55-60mph, generally the better you make them offroad the worse they get on road.

[110 V8]

My 2 cents...

I do a fair bit of 4wding with Toyota's, Nissans and a hybrid Toyota with Nissan axles here in NZ. All are on 35" or 36" simex's and locked both ends. I have no axe to grind and all have pro's and cons. These are issues I have witnessed personally. As for me I run rover axles with a mixture of Ashcroft and Kam internals on a 3.9 megasquirt & EDIS 110. I have ditched the Salisbury and fitted a rover axle in back as well. Both diffs are locked and pegged but run factory crownwheels/pinions and 35" simex's. I have blown one diff and I blew 2 AEU2522 cvs and a locally made 4340 shortside front halfshaft before fitting Ashcroft's gear but all good since. I went this route as it allowed me to upgrade over a number of years as I could afford it and it didn't need certification (Engineer Certification required in NZ for major mods like axle swaps). I would be happy to put whatever gave me best bang for buck under my truck but this is what I have noticed.

80 series cruisers have a 9.5" rear diff and a high pinion (hypoid) 8" front.

The rear is very strong but I have seen a couple with factory 4.2 diesel motors shear all the studs off the drive flanges on the hub (as per previous poster) and a long side halfshaft with a twist in the splines bad enough to stop the sliding dog on the factory locker moving. Recently a club member's LS1 powered 80 lunched a rear diff towing his jet boat but may have been damaged during a pretty rough long weekend on the coast a week or so before. Factory lockers (front and rear) are operated by a small 12v motor with a worm and crescent gear. The motors are a bit of a weak link as they get water in them or the magnets (which are glued to the housing) fall off and stick to the armature. Vacuum, air and cable conversions have all been done to address this.

The front in stock form is a bit fragile in reverse. I have seen two 80s lunch front diffs when reversing from nose down in a ditch. It is common here to fit the 8" hi pinion diff head in the front of hilux's to improve front prop angle with big lifts.I have also seen a hilux do the same thing in reverse with an 8" hi pinion front diff. The pinion bearing preload is set using a crush tube and replacing this with a solid spacer seems to help but its a precision machining job. The axles and CVs seem pretty strong but have seen 2 blown CVs. Longfield CVs are available for them and take an incredible amount of abuse but worth noting that the "Longfields" that Trailgear now sell are not made in the same Factory (RCV - Rockford CV) that made them for Bobby Longfield before his death. You can however now buy direct from RCV which you could not while Bobby was alive. Also, the steering arms are bolted to the swivel housing on cruisers (not part of casting like rovers and Nissans) and these bolts can come loose if running big tyres. Marks adaptors in Oz does a one piece cast swivel housing to cure this. Different years got bigger brakes (as per previous poster) which don't allow 15" rims and also some have narrow drive flanges which can strip the splines but not sure of the years.

Nissan GQ's run 233mm diffs (9.17")

Rear - I've not seen one let go yet. Rear middle diff is wrong setup for landrover but seems very strong. Rear brake calliper design allows a badly worn pad to fall out followed by the piston if left unchecked! Factory rear locker is vacuum operated and actuator is reliable but have heard of people blowing the teeth of the locking dog (mates truck has ARB in rear now for this reason). Halfshafts are not floating like Rover and cruiser which I don't like as halfshaft directly supports and locates the wheel.

Front diffs seem equally strong but housing can bend by the swivel ball. Welding gussets in here seems to be the cure. Freewheeling hubs and hub gears seem to be a weak link. When these fail they can destroy the splines on the end of the CV. Have seen CVs fail but not commonly. Cool bits for Nissan axles are not as varied as Toyo because the USA never got the GQ patrol/safari but Nitro gear make shafts and CV's and I hear RCV do now as well.

Spares (stub axles, seals, bearings etc) are considerably dearer for Nissan or Toyota than Rover here. I bough a new stub axle complete with bronze bush and seal for my rover the other day and a mate with a Toyota commented that a stub axle for him would have been 2-3 times the price.

Andy

[taazzukcb]

Wow Andy, thanks for the comprehensive reply!

This is all making it very tough to decide what to do.

I'll be honest, the Ashcroft/Kam etc route would be the easiest. But the fact I could spend all that money to then be refused any warranty is a bit of a sting in my brain!

This is a really really tuff decision.

I've even started looking down the route of making my own axles and utilizing Dana internals. RuffStuff housings for example. Very very tough this. I can only afford to do this once, so need to go the right way!

I appreciate all this advice from everyone. It all helps!

[taazzukcb]

Cynic, appreciate what you say on 37's. Perhaps not a wise choice. Maybe 35 AT's would suit best to cover all types! 37's would just bring the gearing up a bit !

[Lewis]

I don't understand your feelings towards an Ashcroft warranty, or lack there of. You wouldn't have a warranty on any of the second hand axles you are considering anyway, and would face similar costs of replacement new parts to Ashcroft kit if something should fail.

Below are a few ramblings from me on the subject in no particular order

Laplander/C303 axles are getting hard to find, and the higher (more useful) ratio will command a price premium. The last set of low ratio axles I saw for sale were £2k ish. They will also need a disk brake conversion unless you are happy with drums

Unimog 404 axles are wide and relatively heavy, the diffs will need pinion conversions, and you will want to fit disk brakes or be stuck with 20" wheels. I can't remember whether the diff turns the wrong way in one/both/neither of the axles so it would be worth checking. These are not an easy fit for most home mechanics. Also dirtydiesel snapped a shaft on his 404's on 38" boggers with a tdi, so they should not be considered as bullet proof as the Internet makes out

Toyota axles are relatively pleasant to work on, and you can get parts quickly, lots is available next day UK stock from Toyota. The CV tracks are known to wear through mileage and fail, so it's worth swapping them side to side if you pick up a pair of axles. The standard steering parts will foul Land Rover suspension arms so custom suspension arms will be needed, which is not the end of the world if going one/three/four link anyway.

Patrol front brakes are a bit poo, but might be adequate to stop a Land Rover. As mentioned above the rear diff is central so may cause issues on a shorter wheel base.

All of the above axle swaps and associated chassis alternations (if necessary) may have implications on legality of the vehicle. This may or may not be a consideration for yourself depending on your intended use.

I choose to upgrade my rover axles rather than replace for a number of reasons, which (as with everything in life) are a compromise. I wanted to avoid any legal implications, I wanted to retain standard track width (all of the above mentioned axles are wider), I wanted to use Land Rover bolt pattern wheels, I wanted to spread the cost of the upgrades over a period of time, the max tyre size I required was 35", I wanted to keep costs down with used parts where possible, I enjoy the enormous aftermarket support for Land Rover parts throughout the UK, I wanted to keep parts commonality with my three off-roading buddies, I have another vehicle and my Land Rover is not used daily so it wouldn't be the end of the world if I suffered a massive failure and could not use the vehicle short term, I do not compete so if I break an axle component it will not ruin my day or cost me an expensive entry fee.

Land Rover axles ticked all of these boxes for me so it was a no-brainer, I'd suggest that you make a similar list of wants and carefully consider the attributes of each axle type against it

I give my axles a bit of death; I regularly reverse up hill on full lock with the front locker in, I regularly get air borne at the top of a climb and land under full power etc, and also do many of the other things people tell you not to do because it kills axles parts, however so far so good. The main recurring issue with the Land Rover axles was snapping drive flange bolts, which I then replaced with larger stronger bolts. Since upgrading them I now experience problems keeping them tight, but I replace them with new every few months, loctite them in, and check them regularly, so the problem is not insurmountable. Worth noting is that my tyres are not ultra aggressive, just BFG Muds.