Jon White Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Ok....... Dont really understand here to be honest.........its a bit beyond me! I'm suffering with front axle tramp on my series when going up steep climbs (diffs locked) which I suspect is whats casuing my trucks appetite for front axle components. Question is what can i do to reduce this? Its on 2 leaf parabolics, with ES3000 shocks, and runs 1 tonne shackles, and I've ground the spring pads to correct the castor. Shocks have been moved up (top and bottom mounts) by about 4" to improve ground clearance. A mate of mine has suggested I need shocks with stiffer rebound damping, but the same compression damping as I have now. Does anyone know if maybe swapping to ES9000's on the front would have this effect? I'm also wondering if maybe my re-positioning of the shock mounts hasnt helped.... Also would lowering tyre pressures reduce tramp? And for the record, its staying on leaves so thats not a valid answer! Any suspension guru's out there? Thanks Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 what motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 he's got one of them silly v8 things, stick a diesel in it to weigh it down jon, i dont think i suffer from axle tramp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 what motor? 88" Series. Jon, maybe anti tram bars (like a radius arm) might do the trick. I'm sure someone told me C303s do something along these lines. Jez will know far more about this, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 88" series, on series axles, carbed V8. Running ARBs front and rear, and rims are reversed 8 spokes giving 6" of back spacing. Need any more info? Ta! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Its likely to be one of two things Jon under damping leading to tramp or..... spring wrap I dont think (as you havent radically changed any geometry) that theres likely to me anything more than that tackling underdamping would be my first suggestion (easy solution - fit 9000's or alternative) tackling spring wrap is a bit more long winded but if you speak nicely to mr Fridgefreezer he may even post some pics of the setup thats going on his (on next weekends list) a simple radius arm job doesnt allow for the suspension to cycle correctly as theres fore and aft movement as well as rotation to deal with - a custom arm (akin to a radius arm) but with a heim joint joining to a spring hanger takes care of the chassis end, stock bushes at the fork ends will deal with shock load - couple of lugs onto the axle tube and bobs ya monkey, its not a major fab but try the dampers first! HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Jon, Bill had some god ideas on this that might be worth trying. It involved reversing the front springs placing the hangers at the front. Think he's on hol at the moment but try a search. Did seem to make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 Hmmmmm Thanks Chaps! Think I'll try shocks as a first port of call! So can anyone confirm that the ES9000's would be worth trying as an upgrade to the ES3000's? Oddly I dont get the problem with the rear end...... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Oddly I dont get the problem with the rear end...... You said it is worse on steep climbs, wonder if the weight transfer to the back axle is causing it to be reduced in this case? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The back end has more weight over it, so yes it will be more inclined to stay put. One option, if it's axle wrap, is to add a leaf, this stops the axle rotating. It's more of a problem on paras than standard spring packs as it would take a lot to twist a LR spring pack! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Found it ... Read this http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=7572 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 hmmmmm food for thought there..........shame no-ones actually tried it out yet! Dont really want to get into adding a leaf, as my suspension is nice and compliant and dont want to lose articulation. Interestingly this might be why tonk doesnt have the problem as his truck is so lardy! The v8 weighs a fraction what his oil burner does! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The shackle reversal thing sounds good in theory, wonder why some vehicles do it one way and others another? My only theory would be that with leading shackles it could cause a bit of steering vaugeness as the front of the spring would be more inclined to move, whereas with the shackles trailing they will go along with whatever the front is doing. LR must've had a reason to change it way back in 1948 as Bill states "most suspension designers don't know either" I'm sort of wondering if in fact they know something we don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 As above really. Es9000's will help a lot. Are you suffering any problems with u bolts coming loose? As it could be that the spring seat is worn as well. The devise that jez is refering to is generally refered to as an anti-wrap bar or ladder bars they are quite popular in the states, so a googlesearch might find you some pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McCleary Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 There is a reasonable write up on an anti wrap bar here. Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheeppimp Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The shackle reversal thing sounds good in theory, wonder why some vehicles do it one way and others another? My only theory would be that with leading shackles it could cause a bit of steering vaugeness as the front of the spring would be more inclined to move, whereas with the shackles trailing they will go along with whatever the front is doing.LR must've had a reason to change it way back in 1948 as Bill states "most suspension designers don't know either" I'm sort of wondering if in fact they know something we don't my understanding is that the early 80in had leading shckles but that there were issues with vague handling (on a series?) so they swapped it to the rear of the front spring. There was some cause given but i can't recall it at the moment something to do with wear but 'tis filed away in the dim and dusty recesses of my mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonk Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Interestingly this might be why tonk doesnt have the problem as his truck is so lardy! The v8 weighs a fraction what his oil burner does!Jon yours has a lardy driver to make up for it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Oooooooooooo thouh Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 just an idea but if its leading shackle then as the suspension compresses ie hitting a bump at speed the axle would have to travel forwards placing further load on the spring either showing itself in spring failure or more wrap?!? with trailing shackle the axle (as it cycles) will move in the same direction as the impact god knows - Im only guessing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 There's a pretty good tech writeup here: 4x4Wire Anti-wrap tech, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that many of Pirate4x4 wouldn't know one end of a hammer from the other yet are prepared to recommend all sorts of dumbass solutions, including chains, wire rope, and other bizarre contrivances. The most common solution in the states is the traction bar / ladder bar: Sam's Offroad Traction Bar A remarkably similar version for Toyotas: www.budbuilt.com/new/traction_bars.html Pirate 4x4 ugly but effective fab job by Billavista The only other one that I can make out as being a reasonably sensible solution is the Bam Bar: http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/ Going on the grounds the most simple/obvious solution is probably the best, the traction bar looks like a good bet and is what I'm going with on mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 88" series, on series axles, carbed V8.Running ARBs front and rear, and rims are reversed 8 spokes giving 6" of back spacing. Need any more info? Ta! Jon My 86" series 1, v8, twin lockered, parabolics, 8 spokes, es3000 had exactly the same problem, the es9000's will help tremendously, also, I fabricated twisty front shackles, they reduced it even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yostumpy Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Ok.......Dont really understand here to be honest.........its a bit beyond me! I'm suffering with front axle tramp on my series when going up steep climbs (diffs locked) which I suspect is whats casuing my trucks appetite for front axle components. Question is what can i do to reduce this? Its on 2 leaf parabolics, with ES3000 shocks, and runs 1 tonne shackles, and I've ground the spring pads to correct the castor. Shocks have been moved up (top and bottom mounts) by about 4" to improve ground clearance. A mate of mine has suggested I need shocks with stiffer rebound damping, but the same compression damping as I have now. Does anyone know if maybe swapping to ES9000's on the front would have this effect? I'm also wondering if maybe my re-positioning of the shock mounts hasnt helped.... Also would lowering tyre pressures reduce tramp? And for the record, its staying on leaves so thats not a valid answer! Any suspension guru's out there? Thanks Jon AXEL TRAMP!!!!!!!!! WASN'T HE A SCANDINAVIAN VAGRANT!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 mine suffers from leaf wrapping underbraking, and im running es9000 thats what you get for having rangie vented disc brakes. Wanna swop? i was planning on using a damper as a kind of thrid link, as the position for ridgid bar with out imposing flex would be some where rediculous. no idea if it would work, but its gotta be worth a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 yet are prepared to recommend all sorts of dumbass solutions, including chains, wire rope, and other bizarre contrivances. Not getting your forums mixed up are you FF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted November 22, 2006 Author Share Posted November 22, 2006 John, I can see the way those traction bars are supposed to work, but all seem aimed at rear axle problems. To do the same on the front axle would surely require the bars to be mounted onto the front of the front axle with the bars running forwards. Would then end up very short and difficult to mount surely? I've not had any problems under braking (disks all round). 898KOR - when you say twisty front shackles, so you mean revolver type shackels that fit to the rear ends of the front springs, or do you mean flexy front mounts like thos egon-2-far were doing? Sounds like the ES9000's would be a good first step anyway thats easy to do! Cheers Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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