Cornish Rattler Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Hi guys I have been thinking about replacing my tired defender 200tdi engine with a recon'd disco 200tdi engine but got thinking about the cooling fan on the disco engine, will fitting a disco engine into a defender make the fan on the disco engine redundent like with a series truck where you have to cut the end of the thread off where the fan fits or can i still use the fan in a defender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 The Discovery's water pump is in the wrong place anyway, putting the fan too low and it will foul the cross member, never mind the rad. You'll need to retain the electric fan, loathe as I am to say it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Rattler Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 The Discovery's water pump is in the wrong place anyway, putting the fan too low and it will foul the cross member, never mind the rad. You'll need to retain the electric fan, loathe as I am to say it. Are right ok no prob's just thought i would ask as i don't fancy cooking a new recon'd engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Why should you cook an engine using an electric fan. Especially a 200Tdi? I've run an electric fan on my 300Tdi, with a properly set up fan coolant switch. Even in ambient temperatures of 35 Deg C climbing hills, no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 As Mike says, it should do fine with an electric fan. 14" is what you need, and I strongly recommend the X-Eng X-Fan thermostatic switch and hose adaptor, plus a backup manual override switch in case the thermostatic switch fails. Works fine on my Discovery 200Tdi in my 109. I'd still rather have the viscous fan, but can't, so this'll do. Just make sure the fan is installed and wired correctly - I had a puller fan to mount behind the rad; the box and internal wrapping were labelled puller, but the impeller was on the pusher way around. It seemed to work, but it did a poor job climbing mountains until I found the wiring needed reversing (so it now has blue feed and brown earth) and not it works well - clearly it was a pusher, and you need to reverse the polarity as well as fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 The Discovery's water pump is in the wrong place anyway, putting the fan too low and it will foul the cross member, never mind the rad.Why will it foul the rad? Mines nowhere near the crossmember, and it's only even remotely near the rad because I've moved it further back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Rattler Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 Why should you cook an engine using an electric fan. Especially a 200Tdi? I've run an electric fan on my 300Tdi, with a properly set up fan coolant switch. Even in ambient temperatures of 35 Deg C climbing hills, no problem. Sorry i didn't mean it that way i meant having a good fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I was under the impression that this Discovery engine is to replace a Defender engine in a SIII. I may be mistaken. Why will it foul the rad? Mines nowhere near the crossmember, and it's only even remotely near the rad because I've moved it further back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Given that the topic is in the defender section I went the other way and assumed defender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 The obvious thing to do in my eyes is swap the defender related bits onto the new engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Almost all modern cars have electric cooling fans. If you can cool a 300hp 3L diesel in the front of a X5 with an electric fan, you wont have an issue cooling a 300tdi with one, and you'll save some fuel as well. The issue is getting an electric fan thats actually powerful. Many of the aftermarket ones are seriously underpowered. The factory 10" Fan on my A4 needs a 40A fuse, and draws around 300W at full power. The one on my 330d is huge, fills the whole radiator and has a 100A fuse. These big, powerful, fans are usually controlled by PWM or multi-speed relays or similar, rather than just going full power, which can be tricky to arrange in an aftermarket scenario. By comparison, a 10" pacet uses about 7 amps. The biggest one they sell (16") uses 20A. I'd be searching a scrap yard for a suitable fan, rather than buying an underpowered one new, and take whatever PWM unit or ballast resistors the fan uses in its factory installation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketomcat Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Viscous fan on a 200tdi disco engine will fit in a 90/110 but it must be in the td/na position, have a 4 bolt steering box and with a little trimming a td cowl fits upside down. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I have no fan at all , and have run like this for years , 200tdi engine and matching rad etc from a Disco . This is with an hydraulic pto and winch used for normal winching of loads and recovery . If the temp gauge does start to get above 1/4 towards middle a couple of minutes ticking over brings it down or turn the heater on and keep going . Ambient temp in the UK are nowhere near hot enough to worry about it from my experience cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Rattler Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Ha ha to save confusion its a disco 200 going into a defender 200 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Rattler Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Almost all modern cars have electric cooling fans. If you can cool a 300hp 3L diesel in the front of a X5 with an electric fan, you wont have an issue cooling a 300tdi with one, and you'll save some fuel as well. The issue is getting an electric fan thats actually powerful. Many of the aftermarket ones are seriously underpowered. The factory 10" Fan on my A4 needs a 40A fuse, and draws around 300W at full power. The one on my 330d is huge, fills the whole radiator and has a 100A fuse. These big, powerful, fans are usually controlled by PWM or multi-speed relays or similar, rather than just going full power, which can be tricky to arrange in an aftermarket scenario. By comparison, a 10" pacet uses about 7 amps. The biggest one they sell (16") uses 20A. I'd be searching a scrap yard for a suitable fan, rather than buying an underpowered one new, and take whatever PWM unit or ballast resistors the fan uses in its factory installation. Yeah years ago when i fitted a disco 200 in a s11a swb i ran it originally without a fan but i was asked to move a caravan for someone in maclesfield Cheshire and it was quite hilly around that area and i noticed the temp gauge that normally stayed in the cold move slightly over so decided to stop for an hour to let it cool down then con't afterwards so after that i fitted an electric fan off i think a citroen Xara diesel can't remember the size though and i never had to use it either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 If it's a Defender 200 currently then just swap the block over and keep all the ancillaries/timing chest etc. Defender spec. as suggested above. This solves all the packaging problems and means a standard 200Tdi Defender viscous fan & cowling will fit and work as designed, no need to convert to electric unless you specifically want to (e.g. for ease of access). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Almost all modern cars have electric cooling fans. If you can cool a 300hp 3L diesel in the front of a X5 with an electric fan, you wont have an issue cooling a 300tdi with one, and you'll save some fuel as well. The issue is getting an electric fan thats actually powerful. Many of the aftermarket ones are seriously underpowered. The factory 10" Fan on my A4 needs a 40A fuse, and draws around 300W at full power. The one on my 330d is huge, fills the whole radiator and has a 100A fuse. These big, powerful, fans are usually controlled by PWM or multi-speed relays or similar, rather than just going full power, which can be tricky to arrange in an aftermarket scenario. By comparison, a 10" pacet uses about 7 amps. The biggest one they sell (16") uses 20A. I'd be searching a scrap yard for a suitable fan, rather than buying an underpowered one new, and take whatever PWM unit or ballast resistors the fan uses in its factory installation. Only because they have transverse engines; it is not because of any efficiency benefit. Electric fans are less efficient and less effective than viscous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Yeah years ago when i fitted a disco 200 in a s11a swb i ran it originally without a fan but i was asked to move a caravan for someone in maclesfield Cheshire and it was quite hilly around that area and i noticed the temp gauge that normally stayed in the cold move slightly over so decided to stop for an hour to let it cool down then con't afterwards so after that i fitted an electric fan off i think a citroen Xara diesel can't remember the size though and i never had to use it either You didn't replace the sender unit for the temperature gauge to work correctly, and omitted the fan too? This is the sort of reason Land Rovers get a reputation for being unreliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I have no fan at all , and have run like this for years , 200tdi engine and matching rad etc from a Disco . This is with an hydraulic pto and winch used for normal winching of loads and recovery . If the temp gauge does start to get above 1/4 towards middle a couple of minutes ticking over brings it down or turn the heater on and keep going . Ambient temp in the UK are nowhere near hot enough to worry about it from my experience cheers Steveb Please don't encourage others to blow their engines up. Fans are not optional, and running without one will catch up with you one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Only because they have transverse engines; it is not because of any efficiency benefit. Electric fans are less efficient and less effective than viscous. My BMW and Audi are both longitudinal. The BMW has one huge electric fan. The Audi has a viscous and electric side by side, however the Audis 16 years old. Newer A4's are still longitudinal, but are solely cooled by electric fans. Given the efficiency drive these cars experience to save every drop of CO2, you can be absolutely sure they would still be using viscous fans if they were more efficient. The simple fact is, for most driving, the fan isnt required at all. Natural airflow thru the radiator is plenty, and thus driving a viscous fan is wasting power and thus fuel. So while it may be true that directly driving the fan is more efficient than electrically driving it, the electrically driven fan is off 99% of the time, thus savings are made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 My BMW and Audi are both longitudinal. The BMW has one huge electric fan. The Audi has a viscous and electric side by side, however the Audis 16 years old. Newer A4's are still longitudinal, but are solely cooled by electric fans. Given the efficiency drive these cars experience to save every drop of CO2, you can be absolutely sure they would still be using viscous fans if they were more efficient. The simple fact is, for most driving, the fan isnt required at all. Natural airflow thru the radiator is plenty, and thus driving a viscous fan is wasting power and thus fuel. So while it may be true that directly driving the fan is more efficient than electrically driving it, the electrically driven fan is off 99% of the time, thus savings are made. Yes, and given the corporation taxes depend largely on the average emissions of the manufactures combined fleet, hence the production of the Evoque, you'd think that JLR would be using electric fans too if they saved even a thimble of fuel. You are quite correct in your statement that in most driving there is enough ram airflow that a fan is not needed, so an electric fan will be unpowered. That airflow reduces the angle of attack on a fixed or viscous fan to zero or a negative angle, so it is not suffering any drag, so it too will not be sapping energy from the engine. The only time a mechanical or viscous fan is taking significant energy is at low speed and high rpm, like a steep climb or off road. In those circumstances, an electric fan would also be operating, but with all the energy transfers, it'll be less efficient as well as less effective. An electric fan will also react late, only responding to a climb above acceptable temperature rather than regulating it to a constant value. This means peak work with an already elevated temperature is more likely to cause an overheat, before you even consider the lesser effect of the electric fan to recover the situation. That's why I use the override switch to activate my electric fan before any temperature rise on long climbs or high rpm off road. All the statistics that get used to prop up sales of electric fans are for bench run engines at high rpm with no relative airflow, and thus unrealistic conditions. Statistics can be misused and manipulated, and sales and advertising are where that occurs the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 ......well it's my experience over several years covering 12-15k a year , winching at P&P days as a marshall and also for other uses such as moving dead vehicles onto trailers etc . Towing 3.5t laden trailers at the legal limit and a 3000 mile trip to Poland on autobahns including 4 days green laning in the height of summer 30c ambient temp . All parts are std. , the rad was new 11 years ago and is brass and i'm running a 1.222 T/box and 235/85's . Poland was on 255/85 MT .On the return run from Gdansk area it was 10hrs and 530miles so not hanging around . Now mr snagger , I am under the impression that this forum is about Facts and Experience and that is exactly what I posted . I give the membership here at least enough credit for brains that the dashboard instruments can be correctly read........... Maybe you would be happier elsewhere? Or maybe think twice before throwing unfounded statements out in type eh peace be upon you Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Well Steve I've had a similar experience to you. My 1984 200tdi Range Rover had no fan at all. Never had a problem even when towing My 1996 300Tdi Defender does at times run an electric fan.Mainly fitted for the warmer climate of southern Africa. However if I'm going to be climbing, then I switch the fan on as I start the climb. For those of you that say viscous, Please stand at the front on a cold morning and put your hand in front of the radiator to feel the colder blast over the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 ......well it's my experience over several years covering 12-15k a year , winching at P&P days as a marshall and also for other uses such as moving dead vehicles onto trailers etc . Towing 3.5t laden trailers at the legal limit and a 3000 mile trip to Poland on autobahns including 4 days green laning in the height of summer 30c ambient temp . All parts are std. , the rad was new 11 years ago and is brass and i'm running a 1.222 T/box and 235/85's . Poland was on 255/85 MT .On the return run from Gdansk area it was 10hrs and 530miles so not hanging around . Now mr snagger , I am under the impression that this forum is about Facts and Experience and that is exactly what I posted . I give the membership here at least enough credit for brains that the dashboard instruments can be correctly read........... Maybe you would be happier elsewhere? Or maybe think twice before throwing unfounded statements out in type eh peace be upon you Steveb So, on the basis of not overheating on a long high speed run, which we established means the fan is not active, you advise others not to use one? As for Polish lanes, Poland has light hills, not mountains. My 200Tdi needed its fan in the Alps, and I know of several engines that have overheated running without fans after the owners read similar advice to yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I stand by what I've said snagger , I think you should stop inferring my advice will destroy everyone's engine without a fan . I am not talking about driving up alpine hills . I have described my experience very clearly . You are deliberately being destructive in your comments and I really think you should stop doing it I have nothing further to say on this and as always , it is up to the op to take whatever is written on the internet their own way Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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