Cheap **** parts

[jimmy_neutron]

I just finished a partial rebuilt of my landie engine, including fuel injector pump ,injectors, top end, water pump, k+n, gearbox rebuilt, transfer box rebuilt, clutch, kenlowe fitted, timing belt etc etc.

Took it for a good run today and all seemed ok but temp needle got all the way to 3/4. It normally never gets above 1/4. The internal heater was hot as well. I stopped to take a look and found that whilst the heater matrix pipes were hot, the radiator hoses were both cold.

So Hundreds spent .. It all runs smooth as a babys butt.. The part that lets it down is the £3 cheap **** thermostat from Faddocks.

Sooooo annoyed that i didn't test it before fitting it.

[white90]

Good job you found it before damage was caused

[jimmy_neutron]

Good job you found it before damage was caused

Yeah but new parts should work

[FridgeFreezer]

Been there done that, I had to drill a bypass hole (~5mm) in mine as they don't come with one and they then get airlocked and won't open

I'd gladly pay the 50p extra it may cost them to make a hole in the damn thing if it means it actually works

[Shackleton]

Try spending 6k on an engine remanufacturing and have a cam follower disintegrate, then have the dumbass who was driving at the time think it to be something minor and continue on for 300 miles...

Don't take this the wrong way cause it's meant as consolingly as possible but if you want a part to act like a genuine part then buy a genuine part.

[LR90]

Got to admit I quite like Paddocks, budget parts and I'm happy with that, but easy to buy (preferred the old web site) and the staff are friendly so they continue to be my first port of call. But...

when a Paddock part is not good enough where do you go? Local dealer is good but I have to call by to even find out the cost of a genuine part and then have to wait while they order it in.

So for online ordering of genuine parts where do you go?

[jimmy_neutron]

Been there done that, I had to drill a bypass hole (~5mm) in mine as they don't come with one and they then get airlocked and won't open

I'd gladly pay the 50p extra it may cost them to make a hole in the damn thing if it means it actually works

Mine had a hole with one of them little balls on a stick in it.

So is this a common thing ?

Do i need to drill another hole ?

[jimmy_neutron]

Try spending 6k on an engine remanufacturing and have a cam follower disintegrate, then have the dumbass who was driving at the time think it to be something minor and continue on for 300 miles...

Don't take this the wrong way cause it's meant as consolingly as possible but if you want a part to act like a genuine part then buy a genuine part.

Wow .. I'd be well gutted.

I have a few issues with genuine parts. The main one is that my local land rover dealer is Carlisle. When i talk to them about parts, the first question from them is 'do you have a part number'. Normally i do but sometimes i just want something fairly simple or ask a very basic question. I may as well go to the toyota dealer cos they would be about as much help.

A couple of examples.

1) Clutch pedal assembly from a 300tdi defender. They couldn't work it out, so i had to do the research myself and get the part number. With this i could order it. But why couldn't they work it out ?

2) O-ring from the oil cyclone thingy that goes in the rocker ..

Answer was .. Don't know about that .. We don't stock them .. Don't know how to get the part number to order one ..

However he did give me one from a box of bits that nearly fit. Not nearly enough though.

I could go on and on and on

I went to Carlisle to buy a new Defender when they came out with the ford engine. I asked to borrow one for a few hours to try it out, and then try a new Discovery for half a day. I thought this was reasonable as i have never driven a new discovery so it may take a bit of getting used to. And the defender will feel quite different.

The salesman offered to hire one to me and gave me a silly price for a days hire of one.

Needless to say i still drive my 1991 van.

[jimmy_neutron]

Got to admit I quite like Paddocks, budget parts and I'm happy with that, but easy to buy (preferred the old web site) and the staff are friendly so they continue to be my first port of call. But...

when a Paddock part is not good enough where do you go? Local dealer is good but I have to call by to even find out the cost of a genuine part and then have to wait while they order it in.

So for online ordering of genuine parts where do you go?

I agree... most paddock parts are good.

Problem is working out which one are not.

[V8 Freak]

Don't get me started on stats.....

I'm on number 7 now and still they open too late, don't open wide enough, open and then don't restrict flow to raise temperature again, no bleed holes..... Getting really pee'd off too....

The upside is that I can change a thermostat on a V8 now with my eyes closed in the dark in about 34 seconds..

Neil

[Shackleton]

I agree... most paddock parts are good.

Problem is working out which one are not.

They'd better be I just ordered two swivel kits

Alright somehow I've been triggered, read no further if you don't wanna hear rant...

RE the Carlisle crowd, it's the way of things these days and it really gets my goat.

Very few people demand good customer service these days and so most retailers don't offer it. This 'Have you a part number' sh1te - the answer is 'No but then Land Rover don't pay me to do your job for you, now start clicking your little mouse'.

The other one I always get is 'do you have a chassis number' and I know that there are plenty of occurances of small differences in parts for different vehicles but 90% of the time it's the same laziness you're encountering. '99 Defender Td5 or whatever should be plenty for these guys to go on. Case in point, I bought a clutch, clutch plate, fuel pump, rocker and sump gaskets, turbo gaskets, injector loom, fuel filter, oil filter, centrifugal filter and a heap of other little renewable for this Td5 which all came to over 900Eur. I got it all from a main dealer parts department and the old prick behind the counter tried that 'chassis number' plop with me at first. And I could see him call up 99MY Defender on his screen as he said it. When he saw the list he wasn't long 'figuring it out'.

Another part of the problem is that the biggest customers of these main dealers part departments are their own service department. If more independant mechanics gave quality service and used genuine parts instead of gold digging then these parts guys would be more on their toes too.

I'm a self professed lover of all things old fashioned granted, but good, helpful, diligent and friendly customer service should never go out of fashion.

I say force the issue every time you encounter bad service, it's the only way to get back to the good old days

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I guess the sad fact about this thread is that LR don't make thermostats.............. they buy them in and I bet that they buy from more than one source in order that they are not screwed on price and that it adds some resilience to the production line to have as many items as possible dual sourced.........

You can also place a safe bet that the likes of Paddocks buy from exactly the same sources, as the number of manufacturers will be finite .............but Paddock & Co are prepared to run with smaller margins, so you get the product cheaper................

I am not erring on the side of the Paddocks and Co here, I am trying to point out that often the quality of these types of disposable parts are identical to that of the OEM .............. as they very often are the OEM..........

Ian

[LandyManLuke]

So for online ordering of genuine parts where do you go?

Mansfield 4x4 - they're my local independant when i'm at 'home' (my parent's),and they'll quite happily post to Sheffield.

If i want parts that matter if they're britpart/allmakes/genuine LR/OEM then i go through them.

[jimmy_neutron]

They'd better be I just ordered two swivel kits

Alright somehow I've been triggered, read no further if you don't wanna hear rant...

RE the Carlisle crowd, it's the way of things these days and it really gets my goat.

Very few people demand good customer service these days and so most retailers don't offer it. This 'Have you a part number' sh1te - the answer is 'No but then Land Rover don't pay me to do your job for you, now start clicking your little mouse'.

The other one I always get is 'do you have a chassis number' and I know that there are plenty of occurances of small differences in parts for different vehicles but 90% of the time it's the same laziness you're encountering. '99 Defender Td5 or whatever should be plenty for these guys to go on. Case in point, I bought a clutch, clutch plate, fuel pump, rocker and sump gaskets, turbo gaskets, injector loom, fuel filter, oil filter, centrifugal filter and a heap of other little renewable for this Td5 which all came to over 900Eur. I got it all from a main dealer parts department and the old prick behind the counter tried that 'chassis number' plop with me at first. And I could see him call up 99MY Defender on his screen as he said it. When he saw the list he wasn't long 'figuring it out'.

Another part of the problem is that the biggest customers of these main dealers part departments are their own service department. If more independant mechanics gave quality service and used genuine parts instead of gold digging then these parts guys would be more on their toes too.

I'm a self professed lover of all things old fashioned granted, but good, helpful, diligent and friendly customer service should never go out of fashion.

I say force the issue every time you encounter bad service, it's the only way to get back to the good old days

Totally agree .. but i think most of the problem is lazyness.

So instead of using the dealer i use this forum, paddocks , m+m and anywhere else anyone recommends.

Interestingly .. Because i was so p***sed off at being offered to pay for the hire of a discovery rather than a few hours of test driving, I went back to the showroom a week later, with a shirt un trousers on. Couldn't keep the salesman away.

Started getting interested in a new truck again so went back one day after taking the sheep to the abbatoir. Back to the 'looks poor'.

Salesman not interested again.

Whats even more weird is that it works with the parts dept as well. Go in coverted in oil or Sh** and they can't be bothered. Shirt un trousers un they run around after you. Wot's clothes gotta do with it ?

I'm not a real farmer, i just got a few animals lying around ..

But i think landrover should remember who its customers were before the chelsea tractor was invented.

[jimmy_neutron]

Been there done that, I had to drill a bypass hole (~5mm) in mine as they don't come with one and they then get airlocked and won't open

I'd gladly pay the 50p extra it may cost them to make a hole in the damn thing if it means it actually works

Arrrggghhhh ... after hours of thinking about this i just realised .. If it was airlocked at the stat then the temp reading may of been air temp rather than water temp so i may of killed it !

no ... no ...

let me go pray ...

[jimmy_neutron]

Fridge freezer .. I bow down to your superior knowledge.

I took the stat out this morning. It looked ok, so i put it in a pan of water and boiled it up. It opened perfectly at 88degrees ish.

Took it out the pan and took a closer look at it.

It didn't have one of them balls with a twig on it that goes through a hole. Instead it had a hole with a brass crimped thing on one side of the plate with a small ball bearing in it.

This brass thing with the ball in it was fitted to the bottom of the stats plate. Thus the hole was closing as soon as any water started to flow.

Removed the brass thing with the ball in, refitted it, and all works perfectly.

I understand that if its fitted to the bottom then it closes and creates the problem i had .. but what if it was supposed to be fitted to the top .. What purpose would it have in this engine anyway ??

Just in case your wondering.. yes i did fit the stat spring down

[David Sparkes]

"What purpose would it have in this engine anyway ??"

I think it's worth reviewing the purpose of the valve, be it a ball in a cage, or the ball with a twig.

For the sake of simplicity I will ignore that horrible V8 and it's sideways mounted thermostat.

As you imply, the standard thermostat is fitted 'spring down', and the ball of the bleed valve also hangs down, underneath the horizontal skirt of the thermostat.

The valve is there so that as the engine cools, and the coolant shrinks, the valve will drop, allowing air to flow up, through the top hose, and to the expansion tank in the top of the radiator. Coolant flows the other way through the valve, into the engine block, and the net result is that you don't have an airlock around the temperature sensing element of the thermostat.

As the pump spins, the coolant flow closes the valve, and that is fine. There is some other bypass circuit which allows the warming coolant to flow past the thermostat, even though it's not open, and there is no passage through the radiator. In modern engines this bypass circuit is normally the heater matrix, but in older engines it can be a bypass passage cast as part of the thermostat housing (think Series 2.25 / 2.5 engines).

From what you say the thermostat didn't open on your first run, and I cannot guess why that was. There was clearly some flow as the heater got hot. The only other thng I can think of is that the bleed valve was stuck closed, and there was an airlock beneath the thermostat. This 'stick' could be just one of those things, or poor tolerances in a cheap part, which is where you came in. Taking the thermostat out may have shaken the valve loose, or the action of the test boiling water did it. Now you have removed the ball completely there is clearly no chance of an airlock being created, and although in theory the small permanent hole will delay warm up stightly, I don't suppose it will be that serious, so from now on I suspect you can ignore it.

HTH

[Br00n1e]

Totally agree .. but i think most of the problem is lazyness.

So instead of using the dealer i use this forum, paddocks , m+m and anywhere else anyone recommends.

Interestingly .. Because i was so p***sed off at being offered to pay for the hire of a discovery rather than a few hours of test driving, I went back to the showroom a week later, with a shirt un trousers on. Couldn't keep the salesman away.

Started getting interested in a new truck again so went back one day after taking the sheep to the abbatoir. Back to the 'looks poor'.

Salesman not interested again.

Whats even more weird is that it works with the parts dept as well. Go in coverted in oil or Sh** and they can't be bothered. Shirt un trousers un they run around after you. Wot's clothes gotta do with it ?

.

It's cause some of them think they are better than us........................... Happened to me once when I was younger offered me a brochure , so of I went to another dealer bought a new one went back parked outside the showroom saw the sales manager tooted the horn and gave him the one finger salute

[jimmy_neutron]

"What purpose would it have in this engine anyway ??"

I think it's worth reviewing the purpose of the valve, be it a ball in a cage, or the ball with a twig.

For the sake of simplicity I will ignore that horrible V8 and it's sideways mounted thermostat.

As you imply, the standard thermostat is fitted 'spring down', and the ball of the bleed valve also hangs down, underneath the horizontal skirt of the thermostat.

The valve is there so that as the engine cools, and the coolant shrinks, the valve will drop, allowing air to flow up, through the top hose, and to the expansion tank in the top of the radiator. Coolant flows the other way through the valve, into the engine block, and the net result is that you don't have an airlock around the temperature sensing element of the thermostat.

As the pump spins, the coolant flow closes the valve, and that is fine. There is some other bypass circuit which allows the warming coolant to flow past the thermostat, even though it's not open, and there is no passage through the radiator. In modern engines this bypass circuit is normally the heater matrix, but in older engines it can be a bypass passage cast as part of the thermostat housing (think Series 2.25 / 2.5 engines).

From what you say the thermostat didn't open on your first run, and I cannot guess why that was. There was clearly some flow as the heater got hot. The only other thng I can think of is that the bleed valve was stuck closed, and there was an airlock beneath the thermostat. This 'stick' could be just one of those things, or poor tolerances in a cheap part, which is where you came in. Taking the thermostat out may have shaken the valve loose, or the action of the test boiling water did it. Now you have removed the ball completely there is clearly no chance of an airlock being created, and although in theory the small permanent hole will delay warm up stightly, I don't suppose it will be that serious, so from now on I suspect you can ignore it.

HTH

But as Fridge Freezer pointed out .. If during warm up, there is absolutely no flow through the stat, then heat needs to be conducted, rather than convect or flow, to the stat. Then theres the losses to think of.

The bypass circuit on a 200tdi is the heater matrix, but this does not make the coolant flow directly under the stat. In the same area, kind of , but not directly under as it should do. And of course does do on most motors.

The coolant expansion tank is piped to both the bottom rad hose and the top of the rad. This eliminates the requirement for the valve as you describe it.

[jimmy_neutron]

It's cause some of them think they are better than us........................... Happened to me once when I was younger offered me a brochure , so of I went to another dealer bought a new one went back parked outside the showroom saw the sales manager tooted the horn and gave him the one finger salute

Excellent attitude.

My problem was that i very rarely make my mind up when it comes to change. I like things either just as they are or go all out and change absolutely everything.

Thus when i was thinking of changing my van to make it more family friendly i had to choose what the best alternative was. My favourite was going to be a new 110CSW. But of course the Discovery is worth a look.

Also needed to let the Mrs drive them about and see if she thinks she can park em etc.

Not just a 5 minute look at it un see if it smells nice.

I did go to my next nearest dealer. It took nearly 2 hours to get there, by which time the kids were bored, the mrs was stressed and all anyone wanted to do was go home.

Still, judging by how many problems people have had with the early new defenders, i'm glad i stuck to the simple 200tdi. Spent a couple of grand on the old one instead to make it a family friendly car with 5 forward facing seats all with 3 point belts. Not quite finished yet though.

Then i'll need to try polishing it and it'll look like a new en anyway.

[rtbarton]

I always thought that plastic ball was to bleed air from under the stat when the cooling system was filled.

Most engines I've seen have a bypass in the form of a small pipe to get the water circulating past the stat.

[paintman]

If genuine has a hole, then you DON'T fit one that doesn't!