Andy Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 driving home tonight i suddenly lost power steering & the alternator functions. i thought oh damn that knackered belt must have finally died. investigated, intending to fit my spare belt, to find the crank pulley loose to turn. having now stripped the heap down as far as removing the timing case i find the pulley has destroyed the keyway in the pulley & the crankshaft along with smashing the key to bits. luck for once was with me & the timing is still correct. however apart from a nasty bodge with chemical metal i cant see how to fit a new key to the crank to fix the thing. anyone any bright ideas or is it time for a box of matches? oh to top it all im moving house tomorrow & got a load of stufff i need to move in the car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 get a new woodruf key part number 235770 & damper ERR751 [if yours is trashed] clean up the damaged area as best you can, superglue the key in place, fill gap with chemical-metal or similar, then slide damper on with threadlock applied in it's bore while the repair is still wet, fit the big bolt & torque up & leave it until the chemical-metal has cured, then fit the pulley/belts. hopefully that'll sort it, BUT the best way is to replace the crankshaft [one on ebay here or get it weld repaired & keyway recut --- if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted December 8, 2006 Author Share Posted December 8, 2006 is the damper the thing the pulley bolts too? if so then yes thats broke. i was thinking build the crank up with chemical metal, just wasnt sure it'd last long. know if it'll last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Not sure I'd want chemical metal holding that lot steady, it's a big bolt for a reason It may well work for a while but the chemical stuff could break up under the pressure/vibration and then similar destruction would ensue. Also, if it's all been mauled by the loose pulley how do you know you're getting it on straight in the first place? Could lead to bad vibrations which could lead to further damage... Sensible hat on says take the crank out and replace or get repaired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 weld it on its already buggered so nowt to lose really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted December 8, 2006 Author Share Posted December 8, 2006 i can get it straight as the nondriving side of the keyway is fine. push the key in to that side & fill the other side with chemical metal. im not sure how long it would last, but i really need the car moving. currently totally sick of the thing, hardly used it this year but it still falls apart - new fault everytime too. problem with welding it on is how could i ever change the cambelt that it seems to like eating every 18months? (due to snap again soon at current useage rate). could get the key welded in i guess, problem is moving the car anywhere to get it done. only good side is i can now get it stripped down ready to change the cambelt in about 80mins & thats by torchlight in the rain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I would do the same as western suggests as a temporary fix and then when you have more time replace the crank. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 When I put a Sherpa engine in the first catflap, the engine had been re-built by Diesel Master, but the crank bolt came loose and did the same type of damage. I degreased everything, then glued a new woodruff key in the damaged slot with epoxy twin pack. The nose of the crank was also damaged and I also glued the pulley on . Still used the crank bolt, and tightened it up as normal, so there was no risk of it wrecking itself at a later date. The glue was really just a filler and a means of holding the woodruff key in the correct place. The repair lasted just over two years until I dismantled the vehicle for parts. The crank bolt was still tight, and I had a heck of a job undoing it. You can get cranks repaired - they build it up with weld and then machine it back to the right size. Means your truck will be off the road for a while though. It might be better to buy a new crank - they are only about £250 I think? Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS26 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 weld it onits already buggered so nowt to lose really I met a German in Egypt once - on his way back home from a lo-o-ong tour of Africa - after loosing the bolt and chozzling (good word that !) the keyway in the middle of nowhere, he had the bottom pulley welded on; reasoning that the crank was sh*gged anyway so when he got somewhere he could get a new one (i.e. Europe in those days) he would grind the pulley off and there you go. IIRC it had lasted several months when I met him.... Here though - I think getting the keyway repaired is a more senible option... BTW - why IS that bolt so big? Rog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjojjas Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 using chemical metal is a common quick fix when the woodruff key gets chewed up (not just on landys). I wouldn't buy one in that condition (if I knew), but as said above. It works, its cheap, and it often lasts for ages. You have nothing to loose so give it a go. Jas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted December 8, 2006 Author Share Posted December 8, 2006 right sounds like a bodge job is the way to go. lets see if i can get the bits today *fingers crossed* 2years sounds good to me Les, by then sticky will probably need more than an engine rebuild! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 It's important that you degrease properly Andy. Glue the woodruff key in place and leave it to set. If you then are going to use a second lot of glue to locate the pulley, then make sure you fit the pulley and tighten the crank bolt while the glue is still runny. Don't use excessive amounts either as it can squeeze out inside as well. Might be worth thinking about replacing the timing belt and seals before you do this? It takes excessive heat to remove the pulley once the glue has set. The glue I used was twin pack epoxy - you can buy it from most motor factors, and there are two tubes in a blister pack. You just mix equal amounts from each tube. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Chemical metal/epoxy will do the job ok. I agree that ideally, the crank should be replaced. But I feel that either welding up the crank, or fixing with epoxy is ok. I think it is important to remember that the woodruff key is not designed primarily to take the driving loads of the pulleys. The key is there to provide a locating point. Provided the bolt is torqued correctly, all the belt driving loads are transmitted through the frictional contact between the pulley and crank mounting faces. In theory you could leave the key out altogether if you could be sure the relevant timing points were kept, though obviously it is much easier to include the key. Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 is the damper the thing the pulley bolts too? if so then yes thats broke. i was thinking build the crank up with chemical metal, just wasnt sure it'd last long. know if it'll last? Yes, that's right, pulley should be attached with 4 bolts to the damper section. the engines timing is done by the pulley inside the timing case & that pulley has it's own woodruf key/slot, so you don't need to worry about the timing/cam/pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Be aware that there shouldn't be a 'driving side' to the key; as mentioned earlier the force should be taken through the frictional contact but bear in mind that there's a big torsional damper in the pulley too, which will see BIG loads in both directions as the engine speeds up and slows down between firing strokes - so there's force both ways. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 In my experience there is a driving side to the woodruff key. I had this problem on catflap and a Pajero. In both cases just one side of the key slot was damaged. As Diff says - frictional contact is what does all the work, but if the bolt comes loose, there is a driving force (left hand side of the slot). Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Be aware that there shouldn't be a 'driving side' to the key; as mentioned earlier the force should be taken Sorry Turbo, that's rubbish. If the torque were only transmitted by friction - there would be no point in having the key. For most drives with keys, phase location is not important - so what job is the key doing? Back to the original question, assuming there is not enough friction to hold it..... Attack the crank with a small grinder (Dremmel kind of thing) and widen the keyway until nice & square. Buy bigger woodruff key to fit new slot (Buy the bigger key first and match slot to key). Using a similar grinder, grind down the top of the key so it fits in the pulley nicely. This works pretty well and will last for ever. It just causes a little confusion if someone in the future replaces the key! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Umm... dunno! I thought it was a belt-and-braces type approach that good old British engineering was so good at. Why does the same location on a bus crankshaft have a woodruff key then, despite being a taper fit on a 'rounded triangular' crank nose? It's about 100mm major diameter, 80mm minor diameter so looks more like a 3-lobe cam. I take your point though, why bother otherwise? In case it comes loose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Attack the crank with a small grinder Nice to know that you rigidly stick to precise engineering techniques Si Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I also understood that the key was there for location and that doing the bolt up F-tight was what did stopped it all rotating - I always think that the key is on the large side though. I cannot speak for anyone elses car but mine has the timing marks on the damper and so it needs to be in the right place. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 damper has timing marks, but the cam/pump timing is set inside the case & the external marks can be used for checking purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reads90 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 driving home tonight i suddenly lost power steering & the alternator functions. i thought oh damn that knackered belt must have finally died. investigated, intending to fit my spare belt, to find the crank pulley loose to turn. having now stripped the heap down as far as removing the timing case i find the pulley has destroyed the keyway in the pulley & the crankshaft along with smashing the key to bits. luck for once was with me & the timing is still correct.however apart from a nasty bodge with chemical metal i cant see how to fit a new key to the crank to fix the thing. anyone any bright ideas or is it time for a box of matches? oh to top it all im moving house tomorrow & got a load of stufff i need to move in the car I had the same problem on an old 200 TDi i had in a Rangie. The key on the crank went. told by a garage that i need to replace the crank. But as the car need some work for the next MOT they told me to sell it anyway. So in the end they put a new cambelt on and Glued / welded the pully to the crank shaft (the old one). I then sold the car This was about 11 years ago. Saw the car and engine at an event . mmm stayed clear of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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